I received a disturbing warning today from a source I trust.
The short version is: if you are any kind of open-source leader or senior figure who is male, do not be alone with any female, ever, at a technical conference. Try to avoid even being alone, ever, because there is a chance that a “women in tech” advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp.
IRC conversation, portions redacted to protect my informant, follows.
15:17:58 XXXXXXXXXXXX | I'm super careful about honey traps. For a
| while, that's how the Ada Initiative was
| trying to pre-generate outrage and collect
| scalps.
15:18:12 esr | REALLY?
15:18:22 esr | That's perverse.
15:18:42 XXXXXXXXXXXX | Yeah, because the upshot is, I no longer
| can afford to mentor women who are already
| in tech.
15:18:54 esr | Right.
15:19:01 XXXXXXXXXXXX | I can and do mentor ones who are not in
| it, but are interested and able
15:19:21 XXXXXXXXXXXX | but once one is already in... nope
15:20:08 XXXXXXXXXXXX | The MO was to get alone with the target,
| and then immediately after cry "attempted
| sexual assault".
15:23:27 esr | When the backlash comes it's going to be
| vicious. And women who were not part of
| this bullshit will suffer for it.
15:23:41 XXXXXXXXXXXX | I can only hope.
15:25:21 esr | Ah. On the "Pour encourager les autres"
| principle? I hadn't thought of that.
| Still damned unfortunate, though.
15:26:40 XXXXXXXXXXXX | Linus is never alone at any conference.
| This is not because he lets fame go to his
| head and likes having a posse around.
15:26:54 XXXXXXXXXXXX | They have made multiple runs at him.
15:27:29 esr | Implied warning noted.
15:27:34 * | XXXXXXXXXXXX nods
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An A&D regular who is not myself was present for this conversation, but I’ll let him choose whether to confirm his presence and the content.
“They have made multiple runs at him.” Just let the implications of that sink in for a bit. If my source is to be believed (and I have found him both well-informed and completely trustworthy in the past) this was not a series of misunderstandings, it was a deliberately planned and persistent campaign to frame Linus and feed him to an outrage mob.
I have to see it as an an attempt to smear and de-legitimize the Linux community (and, by extension, the entire open-source community) in order to render it politically pliable.
Linus hasn’t spoken out about this; I can think of several plausible and good reasons for that. And the Ada Initiative shut down earlier this year. Nevertheless, this report is consistent with reports of SJW dezinformatsiya tactics from elsewhere and I think it would be safest to assume that they are being replicated by other women-in-tech groups.
(Don’t like that, ladies? Tough. You were just fine with collective guilt when the shoe was on the other foot. Enjoy your turn!)
I’m going to take my source’s implied advice. And view “sexual assault” claims fitting this MO with extreme skepticism in the future.
> do not be alone with any female, ever
I understand that was Billy Graham’s professional policy all his life. And for exactly the same reason.
One forgets the W in SJW at their peril. They view it as a war, and all is fair…
Why not honeytrap the honeytrappers with hidden audio/video recording devices? They might be illegal to use without consent in your jurisdiction, but then you need not reveal the recordings until you need to, and I don’t think “Arrest him for illegally recording evidence that proves my rape allegation was fake!” would fly.
Or just spread the word that many men are now using hidden recording devices to defend themselves this way. FUD can work for good.
>Or just spread the word that many men are now using hidden recording devices to defend themselves this way. FUD can work for good.
That seems like a good plan.
Will do you no good, unless you have a full recording of every single such interaction, and some way to prove that you were never alone with this person and failed to record it. You’re trying to prove a negative, in a situation where (in public opinion at least, and sometime in a court of law) you have the burden of proof.
Pastors and church leaders (the careful ones anyway) have had to follow this rule for a long time.
I would advise the same to any male in authority in any business (government, non-profit, etc) setting.
SJWs always lie.
And observant Jews; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yichud. (Though that rule was instituted to prevent both consensual illicit sex and rape as much as false allegations.)
Search for “spy pen” on Amazon. They’re cheap.
“And women who were not part of this bullshit will suffer for it” was my initial reaction as well.
Next reaction was the usual skepticism, a la “can I trust Eric’s source”. Your claims on that front are appreciated. As for me, I can fortunately afford to wait and see.
@PapayaSF
Russian drivers have to use dashcams to protect against insurance fraud, so there is precedent of a sort.
@Foo Quuxman: Yes they do, hence about 1/4 of the funny/terrifying videos on LiveLeak.
“…that a “women in tech” advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp.”
don’t you call such a tim hunt?
> One forgets the W in SJW at their peril. They view it as a war, and all is fair…
Huh. I always thought the W was sarcasm.
But then I know real warriors.
William, I in no way mean to discredit real warriors by associating them with SJWs.
I was more commenting on their outlook on things.
My apologies for not making this clear.
Big-name SJW Arthur Chu actually describes himself as a “social justice stormtrooper,” either not grasping the implications of the term, or being OK with them.
We could always bring back dueling.
I met Linus once. And, more to the point, I met his wife.
The SJW’s only do this stuff because they know they have a favorable environment that protects them from consequences of their actions.
Mr. Brinkley:
I was speaking with a female SA who’s duties I am taking over as she is transitioning out of the company. Let’s call her Fred.
Fred was attempting to work with another alleged SA in the organization, let’s call her Jim.
Fred was upset because $task was still not done. Jim asserted that she had not been given sufficient information for the task.
Fred stated “It’s a shell script. You run the SHELL SCRIPT”.
Jim then threatened to go to HR and complain about Fred. Note that both Fred and Jim are of the same sex, gender and ethnicity. However Fred is almost maximally competent. Jim should not be allowed to log in to a computer.
So yeah, I am not surprised by what ESR forwards.
There are PLENTY of examples in the last few years where once you put this little piece of information from this news source with that little bit of information from that article you get a picture that suddenly makes sense, and in a lot of cases what “makes sense” is SJW activism.
And note that not all of these women are SJWs. Some just want money.
I think it’s revolting to change your behaviour because of the chance of someone telling lies about you. Never be alone with any female ever, for any purpose, indeed. For such a reaction, I’d want a pretty strong danger of something bad happening. Have any prominent tech figures been accused of sexual assault yet? If not, I wouldn’t worry about it. I’d want to know what the potential bad things that could happen are and what the chances are of them. If the worst that can happen is that people say nasty things about you on the internet, just ignore them, or tell them to go to hell, either will do. Going to jail, or getting lynched due to false accusations are very unlikely. In between those are failing to get employment and losing the respect of others. Things like that could be a real problem, I suppose. But you should act proportionality to the risks and not get caught up in hysteria. I feel like that’s letting these activists win, making them appear more powerful than they really are, and consequently making people afraid to speak out against them.
>Don’t like that, ladies? Tough. You were just fine with collective guilt when the shoe was on the other foot. Enjoy your turn!
I doubt that all women were fine with collective guilt.
Saying that “they are out to get you” implies the existence of a “they”. I agree there is a “they”, but it requires some interpretation: not a large shadowy conspiracy, but culture, many small conspiracies, and individuals acting alone but influenced by culture.
“In between those are failing to get employment and losing the respect of others. Things like that could be a real problem, I suppose.”
Ask Brendan Eich.
> Fred stated “It’s a shell script. You run the SHELL SCRIPT”.
If it’s really just a shell script that just needs to be “run”, why is it being run by a person instead of a crontab?
Reading these replies years later because of the new escalation (linux CoC).
To your question, here’s why to just run a shell script and not a cron job: because the task is event driven, not clock driven, and coding up the perfect bug proof event-driver is cost-prohibitive.
So has your source named anyone at all who has actually been a victim of this?
> I agree there is a “they”, but it requires some interpretation: not a large
> shadowy conspiracy, but culture, many small conspiracies, and individuals
> acting alone but influenced by culture.
I believe the word you are looking for is “prospiracy”.
Have you folks seen this? Award-winning documentary filmmaker and feminist Cassie Jaye makes an even-handed documentary about the men’s rights movement, found her feminist beliefs shifting, backers pull out, Breitbart writer Milo Yiannopoulis writes an article on her plight, and Kickstarter donations pour in.
But then, on the other hand, there is this:
http://lwn.net/Articles/417952/
5 years old now, so I suppose things might have changed for the better, I wouldn’t know either way.
Mind you, it’s quite possible that there is a legitimate harassment problem at tech conferences and some people are conspiring to tell destructive lies about it.
But I would say that if one hears accusations of assault at a tech conference “honeytrap” may not be the most appropriate prior bias.
But I’d still steer clear of being alone with a woman on spec. As mentioned above for many men this has been standard practice for a very long time.
In addition, it’s probably a good idea to record every conference talk you give so you can refer to it when slandered. As you may know, the Nobel-Prize winning biologist Tim Hunt almost had his career ruined earlier this year. Speaking at a lunch during a conference, he had introduced himself to an audience of female scientists by self-depreciatingly calling himself “a chauvinist monster” who believed girls cause nothing but trouble and that labs should therefore be segregated by gender. A slanderous feminist quote-mined the segregated-labs part, accused him of sexist remarks, and thereby triggered an avalanche of outrage. Under immense public pressure, Hunt had to resign from most of his positions as a science advisor.
What ultimately stopped the avalanche — not sure if Hunt got his jobs back by now — was a tape of his speech that surfaced several days later. It proved that Hunt had indeed used self-depreciating humor, that the female audience had taken his remarks in the spirit he had given them in, and that it had responded with appreciative laughter.
That’s why prominent speakers who don’t want to rely on other people’s recording devices probably want to record their talks themselves.
No “almost” about it: he has not gotten his job back, and media references to the story (e.g., this Science Friday episode) still follow the disproven (yet somehow not discredited) narrative.
Ah. PapayaSF beat me to it.
Good news that this “group” is finally disbanding. Ada is actually a great programming language, and for a while it was pretty much impossible to use it publicly or advocate it because people would think that you were connected or endorsing those clowns.
Well – we live in interesting times.
I hadn’t thought it would go so far as deliberate entrapment yet, but the accelerating pace of SJW’s pushing for “codes of conduct”, #shirtgate, (never mind metalgate, sad puppies, and a Nobel laureate being taken down and made to resign, or Brendan Eich) makes it clear no-one is safe if they don’t bow before the collective, or band together and resist.
Randi Harper stuck her nose in once here, if I recall, and I am hard pressed to think of nastier and more bitter bully.
It’s not too far to this from what Brad Wardell at Stardock experienced – with a sexual harassment case so weak and trumped they extracted a written confession, and stopped there out of mercy. Nevertheless the same crowd responsible for “gamers are dead” and kicking sad puppies piled on without ever giving him a chance to defend himself, much less trying to defend him.
So SJW’s always lie, they always double down, and they always project.
In the meantime, resist all attempts at imposing codes of conduct (see the recent example of @rosarior over at awesome django).
On a practical “recording” note. Recording video AND audio single party is highly restricted and rare. Video single party is less rare. It’s why a lot of security footage doesn’t have audio, if I recall.
A number of states – South Carolina is one – are “single party” states for audio recording, in that only one party HAS to know the recording is taking place. In that case, feel free to carry an audio “spy” pen/ etc. all the time.
This is not the first time the Ada Initiative has been associated with blackmail and false accusations. In 2013, its founder Valerie “Aurora” Henson successfully pressured the BSidesSF security conference into pulling Violet Blue’s talk on sex, drugs, and harm reduction. AI tried to claim that BSidesSF had consulted them about Blue’s talk, which the organiser refuted on the conference website.
What the organiser leaves out of that post is that when Henson spoke to him in person, she made it clear that if BSidesSF didn’t comply with her demands, she would escalate to a public shaming campaign. (The organiser disclosed this to me in a personal conversation after the conference; it’s up to him whether he wants to confirm it. I don’t expect people to accept hearsay, but I’m stating what I know regardless.) This turned out to be a bluff, however, because Henson had already arranged with Marie Claire magazine to have a reporter and photographer on site to construct implications of misogyny. The profile of Henson that they ran in 2013 contained, in the print version, a page pullquoted and laid out so as to imply that three randomly-photographed hackers were at that moment engaged in attacking Adria Richards on Twitter. (With a much smaller caption, of course, for plausible deniability.)
Henson is an unrepentant sociopath who delights in emotional abuse. A former member of the AI told me that she stayed as long as she did only in the hopes of mitigating Val’s tendency to “take after” people (her words). When even your advisory board feels like they have to rein in your vengeful tendencies, you know you have a problem — or should, anyway. Val does not seem to have realised this, or care to.
Yeah, even in the coalface dev world, it’s advisable to metaphorically keep femmes at arms length.
The well has been poisoned. Reap what you sow, baby.
[prediction in an envelope]
>[prediction in an envelope]
Yes, I’m expecting to be attacked. But somebody has to speak up, or the bullying will never end.
Did you catch Vox Day’s “SJWs Always Lie” ?
I found it encouraging, in an “you’re just figuring this out?” kinda way…
> But somebody has to speak up, or the bullying will never end.
A lot of somebodies are going to have to speak up. I’ve been trying to speak up since the Ada Initiative was founded, because I had already seen evidence of Val’s predatory nature several years beforehand. Only a few people were willing to listen to me, and they did so only to try to convince me that I should set personal matters aside for a greater good. Val has apparently encouraged the interpretation that my issues with her are a personal matter; another thing I found out during my conversation with the BSidesSF organiser in 2013 was that she asked him whether he’d spoken to me, and when he said no, advised him not to listen to anything I said because “[I’m] pissed at [Val] for stealing [my] boyfriend.”
In 2006 Val abused my trust and threatened to accuse me of harassing her when I called her to ask what the hell had just happened. Not to put too fine a point on it, I’ve buried a husband since then. So you can add “character assassination of people she’s harmed” to the list of characteristics as well.
It’s probably going to take an analogue of the Mixon Report to catalogue the extent of people Val has bullied, exploited and lied about in her career as a victimhood culture warrior.
…in *a* “you’re just ……”
Seriously…WTF no edit function ;)
@Meredith – could you give some insight to a knuckle-dragging male like me…how truly terrible is the insidious patriarchy to women in IT?
I only ask because I have nothing but good things to say about the women I work with, and I see no indication of any retardation of their careers due to the contents of their underwear.
I suppose I should clarify, since I did ultimately imply “at arms length” regarding the “women that I work with”…
I have complete professional respect for these women. They are superb and competent. Yet I feel that I must keep them at arms length – in a “walking on eggshells” sense – lest I trigger the vaginal fury of the demented feminist hellwitch.
Or…I just don’t need the fucking headache…and I really don’t want to strap on my asskicking boots to kick some misguided females into orbit.
> @Meredith – could you give some insight to a knuckle-dragging male like me…how truly terrible is the insidious patriarchy to women in IT?
I have written about this before, and our esteemed host has remarked on it.
@Meredith – thank you….reading…
As tempted as I am to snark, let me just point out that Always Be Recording is a good general principle in this current age even at your workplace. And never being alone with a female you do not know EXTREMELY well, ever, without doors open and recordings running. Those with whom you have established good long-term working relationships are on the flip side possibly a saving grace, possibly, depending on how well you know her; if she’s an ally she may be able to detect the snakes coming for you faster than you can as women are better at that as a rule than we are–just make sure the trust level is really high not “she’s such a nice person” trust. This should probably become policy in any workplace unless you’re lucky and not in a business larger than a few people.
This has been going on for a long time, gentlemen. No we were not paranoid. They’ve just run out of places to go and the nerds are their last frontier.
This is SOP for STEM/Biz profs, too. Never be alone with female students. Never mentor them. Never supervise a graduate thesis. A bad review/grade turns into a sexual harassment claim far too easily.
So women are shut out of the best mentor/supervisor relationships. Way to go, feminists.
I like the term ‘sousveillance’, coined I think by Steve Mann while working on wearable computers which record everything the user sees.
There is literally nothing SJWs won’t poison. My family’s roots lie in Stalin’s Russia and Mao’s China. Their ideological commissars are reincarnated as todays SJWs. They are clones – the impure must be purged by any means available.
Oh, and I think referring to this as a “honeytrap” tactic does not really get to how absolutely idiotic it is. We should call it what it actually is: a real-world boobytrap (pun intended, of course). Protip: any time there’s any possibility of being alone with a possible boobytrap, learn to speak up loudly and say that you’re “not comfortable” about the situation. You don’t even need to spell things out, and “I’m not comfortable” are persuasive words with this crowd. Let’s see what happens when we take their favorite weapon and turn it upon them.
@reader:
>I understand that was Billy Graham’s professional policy all his life. And for exactly the same reason.
Well, for religious leaders the reasoning goes a bit further than just the “the woman might make a false accusation of rape” angle. Gossips might make false accusations of extra-marital sex, spouses might become jealous (whether they make it known or dismiss it as irrational and deal with it internally), or in some situations, there is the possibility that something might actually happen, and, even though everything is consensual and even if nobody finds out, the leader would still have violated his personal principles.
“Or just spread the word that many men are now using hidden recording devices to defend themselves this way. FUD can work for good.”
They are more likely to call the cops for illegal recording, having a recorder strapped to you falls upde wiretapping in many states in the US.
Evolution has equipped us to handle many forms of threat and hardship from the natural world, and the last few thousand years of civilization has added a skill set for dealing with rogue hostiles that occasionally cross our path in life. However, the recent convergence of mass communication and memetic manipulation has given birth to a new threat matrix in our daily lives. For men, it’s natural to view these sorts of feminine attacks as being more of annoyance rather than an actual threat; but our judicial system is broken and the harm can be quite serious. If this pattern continues to worsen, men will soon switch from playing defense (and losing) to playing offense with serious intent. Should you find yourself making that transition, be very smart and very private.
The new, secular man is rediscovering ancient religious wisdom.
All prophets, all great leaders, all wise men, through all the ages and on every continent, have warned against women getting involved in men’s business. Were they all wrong?
I am very open about my religious beliefs that men and women should not interact. I am extremely cordial to the women at work, but I don’t shake their hand or make small talk.
Women love drama, by their nature. It’s hard for us to imagine, because it’s not our nature. “It can’t be. That’s just misogyny…” Until it happens to you. Then you understand real quick.
More women in science and technology is more drama in science and technology. Ask Tim Hunt. You know, the Nobel laureate, decades at the top of his field. Literally hundreds of female scientists he personally mentored to success, not one of which defended him by the way. They took him down like a pack of lionesses.
Think you will fare better? Who the fuck are you in comparison? Some neckbeard.
You wanted women in STEM. You got it.
Try being a male nurse sometime.
Any female nurse can be with any patient for any procedure, alone.
Just to protect my license I have to have a female with me for a lot of things I am required to do, and I have to make sure my chaperone is competent and qualified so no false claims can be made unsubstantiated.
It’s nearly an everyday thing.
So much for equal opportunity in the workplace.
Many men in education will not be alone with a student (M/F) in their office for the same reason. There was even a film using this motive: “The Life of David Gale”
It is not that there are many, or even few, students that will try to ruin their teacher. However, you only have to run into a single mental case out of the hundreds or thousands that sit in your classes over the years.
As usual, the problem is not the mental cases that do such things, but the people that believe them. We saw the same with the scandal of fake “recovered memories” about childhood abuse. Eventually, even the media got enough of that. Our hope is that this will happen in this area too.
But I myself think that this is already happening. This blog post is just a part of the rebound.
Guest: SJWs are not people of intellectual honesty, consistency, or principle. If you try shooting “I’m not comfortable” back at them, they will likely say something about how their job is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Moreover, you’re playing into their frame and legitimizing their rhetoric. Tell me, how far has it gotten the Republicans to say that Democrats are the REAL racists? Have they managed to break 10% of the black vote?
Erik, the trick is say it loudly enough and often enough, and they’ll have to deal with it one way or the other.
And when the Republicrats say that Demopublicans are the _real_ racists, they’re BSing to some extent. There’s plenty of socially unpleasant views whithin the GOP, and it’s no good trying to hide them. You don’t need to dignify the word “racist” by throwing it at them, just call them out when they’re being bigoted and prejudiced. Again, persistence helps.
While there are nuances that make some less severe, there are only 11 “all party consent” states in the US: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. The rest are one part consent, if you’re making a recording including your own voice you’re fine.
What happens if you get consent to record? That’s a lot more legal.
Also, it’s both a good excuse and true that if you record, you have a record of your better advice.
Either the attempt is aborted or the framer starts complaining that the recording is misogynistic.
Meredith said: I have written about this before,
[snip]
“Have you ever considered that most women don’t experience things the way you do?”
[/snip]
…yet they make out like you’re the one with the problem?
”
Will do you no good, unless you have a full recording of every single such interaction, and some way to prove that you were never alone with this person and failed to record it. You’re trying to prove a negative, in a situation where (in public opinion at least, and sometime in a court of law) you have the burden of proof.
”
it’s incredibly trivial to arrange with modern smartphones? You can also immediately upload to dropbox or something as long as properly fast network is available
Well, the battery drain will be SEVERE, but you can always carry a “hackerly” battery pack without too much trouble, and some modern phones already come with very spiffy batteries
My advice: stick to writing about tech, ’cause you make yourself look like a fool when you write about politics.
My father was a teacher, and he always followed the principle: “never be alone with a student (especially a female student)” as well. But claiming there is a conspiracy of “SJWs” out to make examples of “open source leaders”? That’s as absurd as claiming there is a conspiracy of greens, scientists and big government with regards climate change/global warming! Somehow thousands of people are all in it together!
Next you’ll be telling us that evolution is made up, and that actually goddunit. I also won’t be stockpiling gold, even if you think it’s a good idea.
Please continue to write about software, and how you do interesting things with time and GPS etc. But feel free to not show your ignorance in the fields of politics, economics, and similar.
Well, there ARE indications that we are, or have, passed “Peak SJW”.
I certainly hope so.
But in any case, wise people know to always be prepared to defend. And considering I start a new position with some manglement responsibilities. . . .I just ordered a “spy pen” . . .
And @Meredith: Wow. While I’m not on the spectrum ( at least that I know of), I’ve always had similar issues, and so do my wife and daughters. Heck, that’s probably part of our family’s success: lots of other people don’t grok us, but we do grok each other, and that’s more than enough to make it work.
For the record
on audio recording: http://www.detectiveservices.com/2012/02/27/state-by-state-recording-laws/
Also some info related to video: http://vegress.com/index.php/can-i-record-calls-in-my-state
Also –
http://www.palmvid.com/content/support/legal-information-regarding-audio-and-video-recording.html
And an independent report on attempts to frame Linus just showed up on Breitbart Tech.
In my experience, Allum Bohkari is a reputable journalist. . .
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/11/04/feminists-are-trying-to-frame-linus-torvalds-for-sexual-assault-claims-open-source-industry-veteran/
Nevermind, that report is based off discussion here. . .
Quick reminder:
Last month Sarah Sharp “quit” Linux because of Linus and Greg making some jokes that made her feel “threatened’ or somesuch hogwash.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/10/05/2031247/linux-kernel-dev-sarah-sharp-quits-citing-brutal-communications-style
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8123533&cid=50664697
Sarah Sharp is a member of the Ada Initiative, who are behind this attempt to frame Linus and others.
http://adainitiative.org/2014/07/25/welcoming-sarah-sharp-and-selena-deckelmann-to-our-advisory-board/
I knew something smelled wrong about how Sharp and a few others had an orchestrated fainting couch moment over the “toxic environment,” and now we have claims that an organization Sharp is a board member of is actively trying to frame Linus for Sexual Assault.
If you’re working with the Ada Initiative, I would suggest not doing so in the future. If you’re working in tech, make damned sure you’re never alone with someone, especially someone of the opposite sex, doubly so if that person is a feminist.
But the article is worth clicking through, if only for the picture of Linus.
This story has a whiff of Eron Gjoni to it. Difficult to verify, but it fits people’s preconceived notions about what “SJWs” are really like, so it earns the attention –and credence — of “a certain crowd”.
It has been shown that Gjoni was out to get personal revenge on Zoe Quinn for breaking up with him, and was basically pulling the strings in order to start and perpetuate a harassment campaign against her and ruin her emotionally, his stated goal being to “get Zoe Quinn into therapy”.
So how do we know that this report isn’t some MRA tryna get back at those mean old SJWs for defining and enforcing norms of behavior that require people in open source to be respectful and not be dicks?
>So how do we know that this report isn’t some MRA tryna get back at those mean old SJWs
Because I know the source and he’s not an MRA.
I wrote:
>Because I know the source and he’s not an MRA.
In the interests of scrupulous honesty, I will note that I have heard him grumble about “useless diversity hires” and remark that the women he works with who aren’t SJWs are unhappy with them too for making women who advanced on merit look bad. But this is the kind of thing any non-MRA might say when he thinks the PC police aren’t listening.
This is not a new issue, and the abuse of social conventions by Radical Feminists using any means to justify their madness will continue. For those interested in pushing back there is an interesting option in funding a Film – the Red Pill – by Cassie Jaye.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cassiejaye/the-red-pill-a-documentary-film/
The interesting thing is that Mixon is an SJW. She thinks Requires Hate is a betrayal of SJW ideals. I think Requires Hate is a highly probably result of SJW methods. We could both be right.
I don’t think SJWs always lie. I think they never quantify– a serious problem, but not the same thing.
> It has been shown that Gjoni was out to get personal revenge on Zoe Quinn for breaking up with him
The behavior he alleged on her part during the relationship was, objectively, emotional abuse. We are told that we are supposed to automatically side with supposed victims of abuse, and automatically side against accused abusers. We are not told that this only applies when the supposed victims are women and the supposed abusers are men.
(We are simply expected to understand the latter without it being said)
> Because I know the source and he’s not an MRA.
You don’t know his source. All we can infer from, at least, the part you quoted, is that he heard this and believed it, not that he has firsthand or even secondhand knowledge.
>You don’t know his source. All we can infer from, at least, the part you quoted, is that he heard this and believed it, not that he has firsthand or even secondhand knowledge.
I’m handicapped by not being able to reveal things that would make him more credible but also provide strong clues to his identity. Unlike me, he has a career that could be destroyed by a full-on SJW attack – and neither of us thinks they would hesitate to target him for speaking truth to their power. He doesn’t want to be Eiched, and I will not put him at that risk.
So all I can say is that I think I have excellent reason to believe him.
“What’s all this concern about ‘big bad SJWs’? It’s all hysteria promoted by MRAs.”
Riiight. This TLA is not the problem; that one is. Uh-huh.
I’ve researched and written about the Ada Initiative before. They are what you would expect; a mentally disheveled and broken group of women who’ve adopted lesbian supremacist ideology as their own personal religion. For some reason they think if they use the words “feminist” and “social justice” enough they can get away with the most sociopathic bigoted behaviors.
To no one’s surprise Ada is worshipped in the science fiction community, yet another hobby which has been destroyed by a crusade to fight “whiteness” and the cruel oppression of the “gender binary” and pass it off as “social justice,” mostly without a hint of self-awareness of where their ideology even comes from. See: Judith Butler’s war of the pronouns.
And let me assure you of something regarding Laura Mixon and Requires Hate: that is an inter-KKK feud. As long as RH was comparing white men to the intelligence of “buffaloes” everything was just peachy, since Mixon herself writes inspiring essays about the “unconscious bias of white men.”
We can all get in a rage for these horrible SJW, but remember that this is the country where you can get on a sex offenders list for urinating in public:
The Ridiculous Laws That Put People on the Sex Offender List
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/08/mapped_sex_offender_registry_laws_on_statutory_rape_public_urination_and.html
You Might Be a Sex Offender and Not Even Know It!
Have you ever peed in public? Or hugged a child? Or been naked in your own home? You might be in trouble
http://www.menshealth.com/best-life/you-might-be-sex-offender-and-not-know-it
Who writes these laws?
Hi, I’ve been active in the open source movement since 1999 as a graphic designer. Radical feminism has always been lurking like a dark shadow over the geek community. Under the disguise to encourage more women into tech, the feminist groups would try hard to paint their male counterparts as evil perpetrators and potential harassers. If that’s not enough, they also would lash out to women who dared not to support their hideous narrative. I for example had my work labeled “sexist” a couple of times, other women were criticised over their supposedly “sexualising” outfits. Such behaviour doesn’t encourage women to join the tech community, it drives them away and it leaves a hostile environment for those who stay, male or female. It’s sad to see how far things have come, I would hope that some more people will speak up and make this stop.
P. S. BTW Eric, we once met IRL at a conference in Germany back in 2001-ish. That was when you played western concert flute and RMS was trying to compete with his singing abilities against you… Oh, those were times. :)
After Winter’s first post in this thread, I thought: “Wow, he didn’t figure out a way to blame the United States!” And then he goes and blows it with a second post….
@Anonymous 4982: Don’t be an idiot. There’s a big difference between: “Everyone who agrees with X is part of a vast conspiracy” and “The vast number of people who agree with X includes some who are conspiring.”
@papayasf
For once, I agree with not only his first post, but the ridiculousness of what can get listed as a sex offender.
@ Dgarsys: He’s not wrong about sex offender registries, but I think it’s funny how often his posts involve some terrible and supposedly unique thing about the US.
@Anonymous4982: There is such a thing as a prospiracy, y’know. Or, for those inclined to a SFnal view of things, you could call it something like an aggressively evangelistic hegemonizing memeplex.
This is a legitimate concern for men in today’s society. SJWs are incredibly dangerous and insincere in their methods.
The same type of people are making a play to take over Wikipedia by planting false news articles accusing the Arbitration Committee of sexism and allowing harassment, then citing these articles to justify openly campaigning against the current committee on the Wikipedia Signpost.
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/02/wikipedia_gamergate_scandal_how_a_bad_source_made_wikipedia_wrong_about.single.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/3r84vn/kevin_gorman_campaigning_for_ggtf_bloc_in_arbcom/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-10-21/Editorial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-10-28/Op-ed
Arbcom member Molly White (GorillaWarfare) was a member of a group that sent threats to Zoe Quinn to justify her claims that Gamergaters were harassing her.
http://pressfarttocontinue.com/2015/06/03/twitter-bot-army-the-story-of-botally/
There have been a few other incidents on Wikipedia that look more like hostile action than regular editing. When Archon from the Escapist described what was happening in Gamergate as “cultural marxism”, Wikipedia nuked its page on the school of cultural marxism, replaced it with a page calling cultural marxism a conspiracy theory, and started handing out indef blocks to people who questioned the neutrality of this point of view.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Frankfurt_School&diff=prev&oldid=667219503
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive889#New_user_Kaffeburk_using_a_talk_page_as_a_political_Forum_.28rather_than_an_editorial_discussion_space.29.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Seeking_indef_ban_of_Second_Dark
When an Israeli editor pointed out that Wikipedia allows anti-Israel activist blogs as “Reliable Sources” while banning mainstream Israeli news sources, they made up an excuse to ban the editor as a “sockpuppet”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_3/Evidence#RS_issues
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Settleman#Blocked_as_a_sockpuppet
A comment on reddit alleges “Wikipedians sourcing a state-funded propaganda office as reliable and threatening bans of whoever disagrees” in another case.
https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiInAction/comments/3r9502/northbysouthbaranof_at_it_again_huma_abedin/
Just more proof that tech should not be forced to integrate women only conform with some pointless statistics.
If the work they do merits their inclusion into project x then by all means include them but including them just to say y project has z percentage of women is insane.
Here’s to hoping that 3rd wave feminism fails before its too late…
PapayaSF, sex offender registries only exist in the anglosphere; and the USA is the only country with publicly available sex offender registries which have the chilling effect of pretty much ostracizing people from the community (and increasing the chance of reoffense, because it’s not like they have a good job, a good reputation, or a nice place to live that they could lose by reoffending). So yes, much of the concern about sex offender registries is based on things which are unique to the United States.
The harsh laws against public nudity are intended to protect children from the likes of “flashers” (and if a perv comes to your neighborhood and flashes your teenage daughter in the park you will want such protection) but also to close loopholes in the law that would allow offenders to plea-bargain down to a lesser offense.
It doesn’t make much sense, but then again neither does the adversarial judicial system or system of plea bargaining.
“My advice: stick to writing about tech, ’cause you make yourself look like a fool when you write about politics.
My father was a teacher, and he always followed the principle: “never be alone with a student (especially a female student)” as well. But claiming there is a conspiracy of “SJWs” out to make examples of “open source leaders”? That’s as absurd as claiming there is a conspiracy of greens, scientists and big government with regards climate change/global warming! Somehow thousands of people are all in it together!
Next you’ll be telling us that evolution is made up, and that actually goddunit. I also won’t be stockpiling gold, even if you think it’s a good idea.
Please continue to write about software, and how you do interesting things with time and GPS etc. But feel free to not show your ignorance in the fields of politics, economics, and similar.”
^^ A classic 5th column type of comment. Appeal to Authority Fallacy. Extensive use of shaming (a variant of the appeal to authority play). And blanketing possible concerns under the shame blanket, as if they were all the same thing – I call this the Bad Heuristics Fallacy. Smells 5th column to me.
Re Wikipedia and the SJWs: They deserve each other.
If there is an established MO, there should already be previous examples of public accusations of sexual assault at tech conferences. There are none so far. So right off the bat it is obvious that your source is not telling the truth.
Also, it is hilarious to watch the over pouring of confirmation bias here. If a woman were to make a claim, nothing short of video clips from multiple angles would convince the people that the woman was telling the truth. But idiotic gossip that panders to their biases is so readily believed.
Classic SJW tactics, not at all unlike those of Scientology when they decide to go after you. None of this surprises me in the least; this is in fact EXACTLY what I would expect of these SJW types.
Memetic manipulation works. The SJWs described in this post are not random deviants that occasionally pop up in any social sphere; they were created (and the process is ongoing).
“Cultural marxism” has long been a right-wing scare word used to associate respect for different cultural perspectives with communist agents of influence.
The hilarious bit is that when they’re right, they get the sides wrong: the modernist movement in art, for instance, was recently revealed to be a CIA psyop!
Mike,
At least the Scientologists don’t go making wild accusations. They’re rigorous enough to collect evidence, in the form of confessions of what your body thetans did in previous lifetimes, before going public with their accusations. lulz
@asdf: The Wikipedia controversy regarding “Cultural Marxism” is especially egregious. Some punk dictator called Jobrot controls it, and insists it’s a “conspiracy theory.” Funny thing is, Wikipedia has no problem attempting balance on such topics as “rape culture,” which is just as much (if not more) a fringe or “conspiracy theory.” Not that everything Marxist is a conspiracy, but countless groups of Marxists have had various sizes of conspiracies for over a century. There’s one (or more) behind every Communist revolution (or attempt) in the 20th century. It’s simply indisputable historical fact. Sheesh.
@Jeff Read, it’s silly to say “the modernist movement in art, for instance, was recently revealed to be a CIA psyop!” The modernist movement predates the CIA by at least 40 years. Yes, they funded some people in the ’50s, but it was very little and very late.
As a matter of policy I’m automatically skeptical of any claim of the form “my political enemies are functionally Bond villains.”
…on the other hand, I get nervous being alone with women I don’t personally trust in the current climate, too. So I have fewer legs to stand on than I’d like.
“I doubt that all women were fine with collective guilt.”
Yeah, this looks like circular reasoning, an infinite recursion bug. Assigning collective guilt is okay, because some of the targets were okay with it, and we can therefore blame all of the targets because assigning collective guilt is okay?
>Assigning collective guilt is okay, because some of the targets were okay with it, and we can therefore blame all of the targets because assigning collective guilt is okay?
Alinsky: Make the targets live up to their own rules.
I’ve been slightly misunderstood here, I think. I wasn’t advocating treating all women as collectively guilty, but suggesting a rebuttable presumption about all “women-in-tech” advocacy groups.
“it’s incredibly trivial to arrange with modern smartphones?”
If you think your battery life is bad now, try recording yourself 24/7. If you and lithium-ion technology can only conveniently manage N%, then that leaves you with a 100-N% of having no alibi for a false allegation.
We all carry a recording device at all times (get bambuser on your phone now!). And it is perfectly legal to record a conversation as long as both parties agree. So, if you’re ever in a situation with a woman, simply record the entire thing after getting consent from that woman. Problem solved. If a woman doesn’t want to be recorded, then politely explain that it is not possible for us to be alone due to the number of honeytraps that are set for men these days.
Jeff Read, not quite. What we found out is that the CIA funded largely-independent modernist/formalist art, giving it a boost over directly Soviet-influenced “socialist-realist art”. The enemy of my enemy, and all that. The Marxist influence was going to be there in either case, but that wasn’t a huge issue anyway.
* “(Don’t like that, ladies? Tough. You were just fine with collective guilt when the shoe was on the other foot. Enjoy your turn!)” *
I want to point out that this is really unfortunate circular reasoning. You are using collective guilt to justify collective guilt.
I have, from the beginning, been horrified by the actions of neo-feminists. I understand your caution, but please don’t blame those of us who have fought on the side of free speech and negative liberty.
I appreciate all you have given us with this post, and all the support Linus and his ilk have been given. Keep fighting the good fight.
Jeff Read, not quite. What we found out is that the CIA funded largely-independent modernist/formalist art, giving it a boost over directly Soviet-influenced “soci**ist-realist art”. The enemy of my enemy, and all that. The Marxist influence was going to be there in either case, but that wasn’t a huge issue anyway.
(edited for spam-proofness)
Tell these developers to secretly record their meetings with these feminists when they are trying to set them up so that they can expose their lies to the world.
Show the world what feminism in tech really is.
Eric, you have no evidence of this actually happening. Linus is obviously a popular person and people (including women) will flirt with him.
I say this out of love, you need help with your paranoia.
Also remove this article, all you’re doing is making every single woman look like an enemy.
============
…on the other hand, I get nervous being alone with women I don’t personally trust in the current climate, too. So I have fewer legs to stand on than I’d like.
============
If Tim Hunt incident showed anything, it is that “not being alone” is not enough, 2+ people of similar beliefs can spontaneously conspire and bully the rest into obedience.
Tim Hunt only was helped by a chance recording.
Record everything. If need be, “accidentally” so
> Assigning collective guilt is okay, because some of the targets were okay with it…?
What about just specifically excluding those who stood against it?
> I wasn’t advocating treating all women as collectively guilty, but suggesting a rebuttable presumption about all “women-in-tech” advocacy groups.
Well, that and treating all women as being guilty-until-proven-innocent of being a member of such a group. You did say don’t be alone with any “female”, not with any member of such a group.
>Well, that and treating all women as being guilty-until-proven-innocent of being a member of such a group. You did say don’t be alone with any “female”, not with any member of such a group.
Sure, but how is one to know which category one is dealing with?
It’s not imputing guilt to all snarks to observe that some of them might be boojums, and you can’t tell which in advance.
Also, your original post doesn’t suggest any way for the presumption to be rebutted. “rebuttable” isn’t just an empty word you can throw in to make your position sound less extreme, it has a meaning.
> Sure, but how is one to know which category one is dealing with?
Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that “I wasn’t advocating treating all women as collectively guilty, but suggesting a rebuttable presumption about all “women-in-tech” advocacy groups.” is not a fair characterization of what you said. You may well have a justified reason to advocate treating all women as collectively guilty, or arguably your use of the term “collective guilt” was flippant and the treatment you were actually suggesting was not intended as a “punishment” at all, but you were certainly not merely “suggesting a rebuttable presumption”.
@Random832: To say: “there is a chance that a “women in tech” advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp” isn’t really “collective guilt.” I think Eric used an imprecise term. It’s more of a generalized warning, like “all men are potential rapists” and similar feminist/SJW statements, but actually less sweeping than many (“all men benefit from rape culture,” “you have white privilege”).
When I lock my car, I am not implying that all strangers are collectively guilty of car theft, I am simply assuming that some of them might be car thieves.
Critical theory is a mind-virus, that’s all that is needed for the purported fruits of “cultural Marxism” to manifest, not an organized conspiracy. So even if you’ve decided that everybody using the term is a dumb Bircher, they can be dumb and still be more right than you are.
More to the point of the topic, there is a big leap from “AI members have been scheming sociopaths” to “AI literally has been attempting sexual entrapment and blackmail to take down people embarrassingly immune to their machinations.” And then, secondhand to the person writing about it. No offense to ESR, but the ability to independently verify this is nil, and this is a story that has turned out bad many times before, in addition to being used as a tactic by SJWs themselves (“what do you do when someone pulls the pin and hands you a live grenade?”) Not taking a pro or con on this, just waiting for more info.
@relax: “Eric, you have no evidence of this actually happening. Linus is obviously a popular person and people (including women) will flirt with him.
I say this out of love, you need help with your paranoia.
Also remove this article, all you’re doing is making every single woman look like an enemy.”
Yet another 5th column comment. Shame tactic re paranoia. Strawman conflating criticism of SJW tactics with criticism of all women. And anti-expression smells asking ESR to remove the post.
Here are my thoughts — the solution is the technological one outlined above. Maybe the fact that you might have to record these interactions pisses you off enough that you don’t want to engage, which seems perfectly reasonable, but the technology does address the problem.
Up to a point anyway. The alternative viewpoint is that if I am some particularly evil SJW, I can do a small amount of research, find out which hotel you are staying at alone, then claim you met me in a bar, invited me up to “mentor” me and molested me. I can do that without even meeting you.
Another interesting point, why only women? I mean you Open Source whores might be using your power to attack innocent, stary eyed boys too, n’est pas? The fact that it is only women is kind of funny in “we are super liberal but don’t practice what we preach” kind of a way.
Final point, unless you are concerned with legal jeopardy, which seems unlikely in the absence of realistic evidence, why do you care? I mean the people who are your audience are not generally SJWs, and they would surely accept your mocking derision as sufficient to dismiss the silliness. I suppose you might get banned from a few colleges, but you can still do your thing in the local college bar. It might be quite popular. (Stay away from the barmaids though….)
>Sure, but how is one to know which category one is dealing with?
>It’s not imputing guilt to all snarks to observe that some of them might be boojums, and you can’t tell which in advance.
On the other hand, this is exactly the same horrible reasoning that “rape culture” advocates use to justify treating all men as potential rapists, treating all innocent social and romantic overtures as outright harrassment and promoting “yes means yes (unless it means no and only if there was no pressure direct, indirect or societal so you should probably get a psych eval and a contract before engaging in flirting let along potential rape)”
As far as “sexual assault” and “confirmation bias,” remember we’re dealing with a specific advocacy group which has proven itself to be irrationally hostile towards men. ADA once listed a woman named Selena Deckleman as a part of sexual harassment in tech. The woman’s beef was that being ignored at a booth while men next to her were asked questions was sexual harassment. ADA’s “timeline” of sexual harassment in tech is a bizarre, thin-skinned fantasy. I don’t think we’re being unfair to “women” seeing as how I at least see gender feminists as being perhaps statistical zero of all women in America. The fact there is a statistical spike in tech, comics, gaming and SFF is itself a bizarre anomaly.
This “plot” need not have been “assault”; “harassment would’ve done just fine. A Tor Books editor named James Frenkel was fired for some comment he made in front of a group at the WisCon SF convention. To this day no one will say what it was, which leads me to believe it was so trivial the people who claimed it was “sexual harassment” are afraid it will undermine their cause. Nevertheless it was a substantial witchhunt at the time. The same community just went nuts over the lack of a harassment policy at a con which fit that goofy ideology’s hyper-paranoia of men. You’d think these geek fests were a Hell’s Angel’s party the way they talk about them. And guess who these feminists recommended as a model harassment policy for that con? That’s right; ADA’s.
This ideology verges on insane. Now Princess Leia dolls with the slave outfit are being banned by Disney and a comic artist at Marvel claims he can’t draw it or even sexy poses even while tie-in novel author Chuck Wendig (himself an aching font of feminist knee-bending) personally lobbied Disney for permission to write in more gays. Presumably none will be in belly-dancing outfits. That’s in keeping with the sick hysteria at the SFWA over a Red Sonja painting which resulted in any Frazetta-like painting now being tabu. You’ll forgive me if I laugh at “confirmation bias.” I could list examples until my eyes bleed.
@Goda: “If there is an established MO, there should already be previous examples of public accusations of sexual assault at tech conferences. There are none so far. So right off the bat it is obvious that your source is not telling the truth.
Also, it is hilarious to watch the over pouring of confirmation bias here. If a woman were to make a claim, nothing short of video clips from multiple angles would convince the people that the woman was telling the truth. But idiotic gossip that panders to their biases is so readily believed.”
5th column rinse and repeat. There have been accusation of sexual assault at conferences. There have been situations like dongle-gate at conferences. There have been SJW incidents that have given rise to false accusations.
Regarding the confirmation bias – the original confirmation bias was that women don’t make false accusations and this is reflected in our systems (LEO, legal, policy). The failure of this bias has been exposed. And finally, a strawman/shaming attempt at categorizing many comments as equivalent to saying “all women are liars”, which is fallacious on its face.
You’ve heard of Schrödinger’s Rapist? Meet his ex-girlfriend, Schrödinger’s SJW with a vendetta. And there have been enough documented cases of SJWs behaving badly to make this a concern, whether the OP’s allegations about the Ada Initiative “collecting scalps” is true or not.
The fact is that if you don’t know who you’re dealing with, conservative and defensive behavior is absolutely warranted. Sometimes I wish that SJWs would understand this, instead of blathering about “teaching men not to rape”, as if people who can’t be taught not to rape without profound physical pain did not exist.
@relax
> I say this out of love, you need help with your paranoia.
> Also remove this article, all you’re doing is making every single woman look like an enemy.
Please stop trying to muzzle him or censor this conversation. How would you respond if people told YOU to remove something you wrote?
You see, Jeff, to the SJWs, all men are rapists, period, no exceptions. Even SJW men are.
Is it any wonder that men are opting out of the college dating scene entirely?
And I won’t be greatly surprised if that happens in tech, either.
And, @relax (I hate the @-convention outside of places where it actually carries semantic meaning, like Twitter, but it’s needed here), why should we accept suggestions on how to deal with SJWs from an SJW? All you want is our utter capitulation and destruction. I reject suggestions from Democrats on how to appeal to minorities (hint: “become like us” is precisely the wrong answer), and I reject suggestions from SJWs on how to appeal to them. The only thing SJWs merit is contempt.
OBTW, Jeff… Siktir git!
“Chances are, if an author takes a public stand against harassment of any kind (gender, race, sexuality, in person, online, in print, in professional associations, etc.), they probably write better books. Books that have interesting, surprising plot twists because they don’t rely on lazy sexist tropes. Books that have believable, varied characters instead of paper cut-outs supporting the straight white male protagonist.” – from the Ada Initiative website
They then proceed to list some of the worst gender feminist bigots in SFF.
For those of you who know what happened at Altamont, think, “Please allow me to introduce myself… I have an anti-harassment policy.” I urge everyone to visit Ada’s site; it is a padded-cell.
They have the story of a sexual groping incident that happened to Norin Shirley.
Although the Ada Initiative which links to the story claims it happened “at ApacheCon,” it in fact happened at a pub.
Here are the parts of Miss Shirley’s story that leaped out at me:
“The party moved up to my room. We had beer… I lay across the bed, sat on laps… …we headed to the Irish pub next door… …a few more beers. I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length that I had cycling shorts on under it to make me feel more comfortable getting up on stage and dancing. I had been flirting with a couple of other boys at the party.”
Surprise! Someone touched her!!!
Now, keeping in mind those quotes, think on this. The Ada Initiative has a link on a page which says “triggers people to view women as sexual objects.”
That link brings you to this definition of what constitutes such a trigger:
“A sexualized environment is one where sexual activity or sexy clothing or behaviour are prominent. This often occurs in geek environments and, by prominently displaying women as sexy, available for sex, or “other” than the predominantly male geek attendees, may make women uncomfortable.”
If that is not the very devil’s definition of a blatant double standard and hypocrisy, or even breezy insanity, then such things simply do not exist in this world. Apparently it doesn’t count if women are “prominently displaying women as sexy.” And throw alcohol in any mix like that and yes, it is a “trigger,” which is FemSpeak for “you’re asking for it.” Except when you’re not. In other words, the Ada Initiative both promotes and denies the existence of triggers. Predictably, our darling feminists define each by gender, not principle. This shows the “you-asked-for-it” and “slut walks” for the semantic and intellectual gibberish and straight up bigotry they are.
An anecdote.
I ride a mountain bike in Colorado (a lot). In the cycling community, it is common courtesy to offer aid when encountering another biker in distress (usually a flat tire). Three weeks ago I am riding through a remote section of a state park and encounter a mature woman (late 40s), dressed in fancy spandex, and walking a $10K carbon fiber road bike. She is not fit, so that should have been my first caution. I offer aid and fix her flat tire. She chats me up persistently and hovers inches from me will I work, occasionally putting her hands on me. I start working faster. She asks for my first and last name, what part of town in live in, where I work, etc. Friendly tone, but way to personal for a chance encounter with a stranger. I was polite but standoffish, and as I finished up, she became irritated and asked me directly why I would not flirt with her. Honestly, I don’t know if she was lonely, horny, or predatory; but I left in a hurry.
Beware out there, it’s not just at technical conferences.
@PapayaSF
“After Winter’s first post in this thread, I thought: “Wow, he didn’t figure out a way to blame the United States!” And then he goes and blows it with a second post….”
When attacking SJW for possible rumoured honey traps, you all forget the very real damage done to men. I have never heard of any other country where men get on a public sex offenders list for peeing against a tree. If you now of such countries, please inform me.
I my the silly expansion of sex offender is linked to the SJW syndrome. I would call this Social Fundamentalism the Taliban Syndrome: The Compulsive drive to separate men and women in public live.
I think the Boy Scouts have set up a reasonable policy to prevent impropriety, to prevent the appearance of impropriety and to prevent unfounded accusations with their Youth Protection policy. I volunteer with a couple of organizations that sometimes include minors and the policies of those groups (when minors are involved) are quite similar.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx
In this case, replace ‘minor’ with ‘member of opposite sex’.
Julian assange comes to mind, and many other names in the world…. wont be the first or the last time this is why even before I read this I “NEVER” trust sources of mass information like mass media etc. I have to see it for myself or really know all the angles.
I would ask your “source” for more information, because this is exactly the sort of rumor that is autogenerated from existing political viewpoints or the misheard comments of others. Also we could do some basic fact-checking. You could email Linus and ask him if it was true or ask for past examples when this has happened. Otherwise it is impossible to separate this from a Snopes urban legend. As someone who you can view as a “source” I know people close to both sides of this debate. The tactics described here this are a very very improbable strategy for someone to plan and execute without many people who would be uncomfortable with it finding out and warning others. Think Eric of all the people you know personally who are involved in AI or similar organizations. How could this be planned without those people discovering it and yet someone who has little contact suddenly knows about it.
Unsubstantiated claims like this are damaging to anyone else who aims to criticize movements on a more disciplined basis. I know many people who are unhappy with the Ada Initiative’s work but who keep their criticisms to themselves because their realistic but milder words will be aggregated and dismissed along with rumors like this. We should all work hard not to fall into error whether that is generated by your own assumptions or maliciously by your opponents.
Oy vey iz mir!
I come back from lunch to see the barrage of hateful comments. Eric do not be discouraged and by all means please do not let these awful SJW’s win!
Keep fighting the good fight and real truth will prevail. Expose these fools for the piles of garbage they are. These SJW’s are the reincarnation of the nazi’s we cannot let them win!
Wow, the crazy is strong here today…
There is a Method in treating them as an Object regardless of how they are Oriented.
Milo wrote it up on Breitbart
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/11/04/feminists-are-trying-to-frame-linus-torvalds-for-sexual-assault-claims-open-source-industry-veteran/
Top article in the Tech section.
For those of you in doubt, you have already been provided with proof of the open and public collusion of the “geek feminist” community to lower the standards of sexual harassment and rape to near zero. That is ideological entrapment and as close to illicit entrapment as one can get without engaging in an illicit act. That not only shows a lack of ethics but a lack of awareness such a thing even exists. In other words if men aren’t breaking the law, then change the law until they do. These are maniacs.
It is about what one would expect of people who are at once arrogant and brutally stupid. They can never quite figure out why their plans go awry or why no one recognizes their brilliance. If only men would stop acting like men and whites stop acting like whites and heterosexuality realize it’s just a fake ideology fit only for a circus sideshow. Are we surprised the origins of this lesbian supremacist ideology lie in exactly that world view; one where a handful of mentally ill and paranoid women created a theory of sexuality which “proves” normal people are an oppression and extended that to the Third Wave “intersectionality” of weight, ableisms, “whiteness,” “neuroatypical,” and a host of other bizarre expressions which casts Mother Nature as Adolph Hitler?
I strongly second “elias schnabel” comment.
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907&cpage=1#comment-1649838
Do NOT cave in. Do not let yourself be intimidated by false accusations and ad hominem attacks like this one for example:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907&cpage=1#comment-1649836
They always show their true colors, only they are the ones that engage in disinformation tactics, well poisoning, and he-said/she-said pseudo-argumentation. And that’s why they are so quick to accuse YOU of doing that, it’s the oldest and the lamest trick in the book.
Remember, they want power and wealth, that’s why they are after fat targets, and after anyone and everyone that gets in their way, man or woman.
What they haven’t learned from history yet, is that fundamentalist like them have never won, they collapse under their own weight, fallacies, contradictions and their tactics turn against themselves.
It made me revisit this interview: https://youtu.be/vLqHv0xgOlc
Even though I do not agree 100% with his arguments, he makes a lot of valid points to hear and think about.
This is the full interview: https://youtu.be/y3qkf3bajd4
Wow, TomA, what a harrowing tale. You really dodged a bullet there!
@James May – fucking A, bro. At this point it’s almost a moral requirement to calmly dissect their rhetoric and to spread it loud and far so that the infection is well understood by the public. Ignorance of fascism is the same as tolerance of it.
As a woman -who regards cathedral and bazaar highly- I am truly disappointed.
Your advice is the same as “never be alone with a guy in a room”.
Meant in a “hey little girl, never ever be alone with a MAN. he WILL rape you.”-way. How sad. I thought we were just over this bullshit.
And yes, this makes it worse for ALL of us. regardless of gender.
“human” wrote:
Elsewhere on the ’net you may find proponents of the slogan, “Don’t teach women to protect themselves; teach men not to rape.” Not on this site.
Here you will find people who find that slogan insane (if the intent is to actually reduce rape) or evil (if the intent is to sacrifice women for political gain). Here you will find the slogan, “Teach men not to rape; teach women to avoid dangerous situations; and teach women to shoot and kill rapist.” (Or someone might have a pithier wording.)
You teach kids to look both ways before they cross the street; you don’t simply demand car drivers not hit them. You buy area-appropriate protection against burglars: locked doors, bars, safes, guns, etc.; you don’t put up a sign that says, “Swiper, no swiping.”
See also Larry Correia’s essay, The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape. (Which reminds me: Eric, did you ever come up with a tighter formulation for the Model N kafkatrap I identified?)
@human “As a woman -who regards cathedral and bazaar highly- I am truly disappointed.
Your advice is the same as “never be alone with a guy in a room”.
Sadly, all it takes in many situations is a mere *accusation* of something -anything- deemed “improper”, and you’re smeared or blackballed for life, and that includes being fired from a job or kicked out of school. 99% of the time it’s a woman making the accusation against a man. (Yes it sometimes goes the other way, but not very often.) So honestly, it’s not hard to see why so many men are gun-shy about being around women when the stakes are so high and the bar to entry (a simple accusation) is so low.
I hate the whole thing too, but the fact is that this is what it’s come to. :(
@PapayaSF: “Big-name SJW Arthur Chu actually describes himself as a ‘social justice stormtrooper,’ either not grasping the implications of the term, or being OK with them.”
Would that be a stormtrooper of the Nazi persuasion or one of Darth Vader’s lackeys? I can’t imagine someone wanting to self-identify with either of those alternatives.
@Mike: It’s not just that “the bar to entry (a simple accusation) is so low,” it’s that the consequences of false accusations are often slight or non-existent. It’s tempting to make the penalty for a false accusation of X the same as the penalty for X….
As someone who happened to be born female and pursue a career in tech, I’ve noticed this phenomenon as well. If I wished to become famous for a scandal, I could easily destroy the public reputation of any male colleague by suggesting misconduct. I could attack someone I’d never met in person — for instance, it’s trivially easy to fake screen shots of conversations in social media, and on line news is not famed for its diligence in verifying the authenticity of such sources. My basic human right to be treated with respect should not imply a right to easily ruin the career of anyone I dislike.
I agree that pervasive, personal logging is the best option right now for men to prove their innocence when attacked in this way, but it still comes at a potentially severe cost to their own privacy and reputations — “he was actually at a doctor’s appointment for an embarrassingly personal condition” might be nearly as unpleasant to see in the news as “famous technologist ravages innocent lady”.
@Gavin Smith
Maybe you can’t identify with this because you are not in the same position as someone like Torvalds. Maybe you aren’t the kind of person that these people are targeting. There’s a reason why POTUS is surrounded by a human shield of Secret Service Agents.
Of course, once Islam takes over this will cease to be a problem. Men and women will be separated. Feminists will no longer exist. I find it faintly amusing that these predatory females are still out to get civilised males when there are women being forced to cover their heads and be treated as second-class citizens in the same country and they say not one word about it. Too busy checking their privililges, I suppose.
Thank you ESR for shining a spotlight on this issue. Your ‘never be alone’ guideline is just common sense at work and conferences.
@yoda: I’m not aware of any clarification by Chu, but yes, either one is problematic.
@Brian Williams: You can tell how much modern feminism has turned into just another anti-Western ideology by how it avoids confronting Islam.
“Conspiracy” is a charged term, however it is pretty appropriate to describe how SJWs operate. They do collude and premeditate actions that directly seek to destroy individuals that are not “right thinking”. I first saw this repugnant behavior in the atheist/skeptic communities some ~8 years ago – in no time flat forums everywhere changed from being genuinely freethinking places of discussions to dull rigidly policed groupthink parroting. Even the slightest deviation from SJW orthodoxy was immediately punished with public shaming and blacklists of names were circulated. There was a full scale purge of undesirables and this idiocy persists still today. Atheism/skepticism is now dead to me.
Nothing that has happened since in sci-fi, gaming, Occupy, the European Pirate Party, even places as underground as the BDSM community have surprised me in the least. Everywhere, the same template is being used to poison wells and undermine community spirit. You think this can’t happen to open source, then you are seriously naive – and that attitude is *precisely* what SJWs exploit.
There have been numerous rape smear accusations amongst skeptics in this time period, most notable that against Michael Shermer. Yes there were secret mailing lists where these actions were planned and executed (freethoughtblogs, skepchick etc.), just as there was the game journal pro list in #gamergate as well as DiGRA colluding to ideologically poison gaming tech education.
People don’t like the word “conspiracy” – tough. It’s the ugly reality though. Get used to it. Either deal with it or allow yourselves to be overrun. This is what is happening.
human, the fact is that in the USA presumption of innocence is a minor procedural detail that applies at trial only. The appearance of impropriety is impropriety, and in this society we see fit to exclude people who may be sexual offenders as a form of risk mitigation.
So it behooves men to avoid situations which have even the appearance of impropriety if we wish to preserve our honor and avoid dire consequences.
Aaron, thanks for the link. The man was a delightful talker, and for all I know, everything he said was true. Or at least everything he said which wasn’t a prediction.
If anyone would rather read the interview about just how malevolent and effective Soviet foreign policy was from the point of view of a KGB agent, here’s a transcript.
It’s kind of amazing that we slobs and blobs, fools and nitwits, ended up winning– or at least outlasting the USSR. I’ve certainly heard more about how everything is America’s fault, but it’s reasonable that the KGB were players, too. And I suspect that even just paying attention to the KGB and CIA won’t give you a full explanation.
A little something about the KGB and the CIA in India.
@human: How dare you attempt to womansplain to us rather than meekly accepting the revealed knowledge of our collective and individual male experience in dealing with the problem of false accusations of misbehavior. As a woman you cannot possibly understand what it is like to go through your life terrified of ever being alone with someone like you while at work or at a conference. The casual life of privilege you have experienced prevents you from understanding or even recognizing the male reality. You are confident in the protection and support of the feminist matriarchy, which means you cannot ever possibly experience what it means to be a true victim of sexism.
About half tongue in cheek. Seriously, though, “Never be alone with a woman at work” has been standard operating procedure for men for my whole career in the tech industry (and that covers quite a few years now). As a woman, I’m not surprised you aren’t aware of it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist,. This is just raising the level of precaution a notch or two to reflect an increased threat level. And yes, it’s rather unfortunate, but less personally expensive than a false accusation that cannot be refuted.
@franc: Don’t forget “journolist”. The patterns you point out are undeniable, and there are communities you don’t name that I am also aware of. It is not paranoia when there really are people out to get you, and they don’t all have to be in the conspiracy in order for a conspiracy to exist.
“@human” wrote:
I am truly disappointed.
Your advice is the same as “never be alone with a guy in a room”.
Meant in a “hey little girl, never ever be alone with a MAN. he WILL rape you.”-way. How sad. I thought we were just over this bullshit.
Yeah right, that pseudo-analogy exactly the same as what esr described IN DETAIL. Because fuck context right?
So addressing the FACTS that a minority of indoctrinated women and MEN are pushing an agenda of hate and criminal persecution, displacing well respected and accomplished men AND women that will not toe their line out of their jobs and ruining lives both in the civil and criminal realm, all of that is exactly as brainwashing a girl into fear of all men, just because they are men, branding into her psyche the totally unfounded premise that “all men are rapist, because I say so”
Yeah, those are totally the same thing, I don’t know how I didn’t catch it sooner. /s
If, as you stated, are a woman in tech, please don’t let your bias get in the way of critical thinking, do not take these issues as an attack on your gender. That’s of course, if there’s still hope for you that you honestly want to see and acknowledge the truth.
These fundamentalist want two things more than anything: they want to be the establishment, they want power and money. If you become a target they will give zero fucks you are a woman, they will resort to the dirtiest tactics to destroy you.
And please, do not be so purposely blind: heed esr’s advice and try to see the whole picture. IF YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH A SELF PROCLAIMED FEMINIST MAN, DO THE EXACT SAME THING, DO NOT MEET IN PRIVATE.
They are a cult, if you are not one of them you join or will be expelled from the tech industry.
…. and I invite anyone thinking of responding to my last comment with “So you admit to being sexist and not wanting to mentor women!” to, in order:
1) Read esr’s earlier article on the definition of a kafkatrap,
2) Decide whether you wish to persist with that line of reasoning,
@TriggerFinger
“Never be alone with a woman at work” has been standard operating procedure for men for my whole career in the tech industry (and that covers quite a few years now). As a woman, I’m not surprised you aren’t aware of it.
It’s gotten to the point that women are now complaining in newspaper articles that men won’t go into closed-door meetings with them, meet them at lunches or after work dinners, etc. out of fear of accusations of sexism or harassment, and that they thus miss out on valuable networking experience and mentorship.
@Dgarsys: heh. I was thinking of exactly those articles while I was writing.
I am struck by the thought that after spending a generation asking men not to sexually harass them at work, women are now complaining that men are not sexually harassing them at work.
It is, of course, funny only because it plays fast and loose with the definition of sexual harassment, and will probably offend someone.
The next step will be to eliminate all lunches or after-work dinners so as to avoid both sexual harassment and the loss of valuable networking experience, and life at work will become a uniform shade of dismal grey as everyone is reduced to the lowest, and safest, common denominator.
I follow Mrs. Tim Hunt on Twitter. I forwarded the link to this post by way of NRx alt-right Jokeocracy (Duck) #RedneckLivesMatter
Almost all the comments here, agreeing with ESR, ARE correct. Meredith Patterson, for example, is a nice lady and is highly credible.
ESR: as others have intimated in comments, this isn’t a problem that is unique to open source, nor to undermining it, even though it certainly has that effect. Applications programming, closed source, and technology in general has been affected by the SJW fascist agenda. Keep in mind that there were MORE women in many areas of technology in the past, over 20 years ago, than there are now. My alma mater, Swarthmore College, is a good example. There were more female mathematics, engineering and physics majors back when I was there. That was prior to the massive growth in women’s studies, gender studies, oppressed minority studies and so forth.
Oops, sorry, I meant to say that I forwarded this post to Mrs. Hunt. She liked it, see here https://twitter.com/EllieAsksWhy/status/662038406629691393
Ms. Kesselman, thanks for that Twitter link. Following some links, I discovered a wrinkle in the besmirching of Tim Hunt I had not previously been aware of: the false claims by a journalist that he was given, and ignored, a public chance to explain his comments. Oops; turns out he wasn’t even at the talk where this alleged follow-up happened.
(Let the names of such journalists be remembered, so any news teams they join can be treated with appropriate skepticism: Sue Nelson has—just barely—acknowledged that her claim was incorrect, but says people are mean and nasty for pointing this out to her. Looks like Vox Day’s Rule #2 [or #3?] at work: “SJWs always double down.”)
I’m afraid Linus’ troubles are only starting. Consider that his own daughter got endoctrinated by the neo-feminist ideology:
http://opensource.com/life/15/8/patricia-torvalds-interview
Yup, she even openly says the admires Shanley Kane, the woman who copiously defamated her father in public.
SJWs have been salivating on getting Linus down for a while, and soon they will have enough pawns to launch an ugly attack like we have never seen before.
@Nancy Lebovitz: You are wellcome. The only thing that gave me pause, and got me pondering deeply is the natural reaction that the journalist had in asking: “ok, what can we do to neutralize this trend? Please give us the antidote to counter-act this programming, this physiological warfare that’s permeated the american society?” That wasn’t literal, but something on those lines…
And Mr. Bezmenov replied quite eloquently and in detail, but some red flag went up inside me when I heard “the basic values of Americanism, of American Patriotism” around the 6′:30″ mark.
https://youtu.be/vLqHv0xgOlc
I tend to hear closely when someone starts useing “-isms” in their terms, especially in the context of masses, be they a handful of people, a few hundred, a few thousand or the whole society of a nation.
The natural reaction of a person that is being told that is being manipulated is to quickly ask for ways to diffuse that programming, you desperately want tools to break free of any and all forms of manipulation. I’ll be damn if I know the answer to that, but I’m quite confident in what it is NOT about: going from one extreme of the political spectrum to the opposite, to become a blind nationalist.
Those are gut re-actions, and as the word says, you are reacting in the face of imminent danger, to yourself as an individual and to the society you belong. That’s the worst approach in my mind.
All in all, (and I had to listen once again to his answer just to be sure) he replied very well: @7′:25″: “patriotically minded, common sense people, one preferably two generations of them”
Not fanatics defenders of a flag, or of the abstract idea of a nation, or a large patch of soil, but common sense, critical thinking individuals, that refuse to be indoctrinated, neither from the right nor from the left extremist.
And that’s particularly difficult in the american society, there’s to much history of segregation and socioeconomic alienation, a blind adoration for the almighty dollar, a relentless attack on science from the right and “establishment” religions, multinational corporations and other bad actors that are just “to big to fail” (wallstreet, banks, etc) Throw in the military-espionage-defense-industrial complex and you have yourself a cluster-fuck of a sociological party.
TL;DR: manipulation/indoctrination looses only to a good, integral education, books, a healthy upbringing, teachers that foster critical thinking abilities from the earliest age possible and getting involved.
Apathy/indifference to these issues sooner or later will come back and bite you in the ass.
———————————————————
Now that many more people are connecting the dots, this is another relentless attack from this toxic and dangerous cult:
From a self proclaimed feminist law professor (sic):
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151103/07431532701/law-professor-pens-ridiculous-nearly-fact-free-misleading-attack-most-important-law-internet.shtml
And from a feminist man we see no better:
https://popehat.com/2015/09/29/arthur-chu-would-like-to-make-lawyers-richer-and-you-quieter-and-poorer/
They are after freedom of expression in the only medium they have still not been able to completely co-opt, the internet. They want U.S. Code § 230 to die, they need to remove it to censor dissenting voices, facts and everything that opposes their dogma.
Do you see what I see? Do you see how deep the rabit hole goes?
In ancient societies, allegations of rape by women, was not taken into consideration without witnesses backing them up.
Perhaps this is the reason why such societies survived an epidemic of false allegations.
While such changes to the legal & social framework are not possible immediately. We need an immediate solution to this epidemic.
As Vox Day says, SJWs always lie. I should know; I used to run with them until they turned on *me* for calling out kafkatrap behaviour (thank you for that term, BTW). Saw it first many years ago, but mostly confined to the left coast or the wymynz lesbian knitting circle. I tuned out a few years ago when Ivy Leaguers started with the privilege check horseshit.
It feels a LOT like 1993 for those of you old enough to remember the vibe. But then again, NGOs have always been crawling with crazy cat ladies (have had to work around a few in my time).
Valerie Henson, FWIW, is notorious around SF Bay Area fandom for chiming in and helping out the smear campaign against her father promulgated by the scientology cult, although she hasn’t claimed to be a victim herself.
Back when he got divorced from her mother, her mother tried out the standard “accuse him of molestation” gambit, which her mother has since recanted. Valerie, however, clearly hasn’t forgiven him for leaving, and is seeking to punish all men as a proxy for her father.
Regarding Arthur Chu: his claim to notoriety comes from having demonstrated a good memory for trivia and winning the game show “Jeopardy”. The game requires no intellectual abilities beyond memory, so I don’t find it very impressive. After all, a computer could do it.
Final point, unless you are concerned with legal jeopardy, which seems unlikely in the absence of realistic evidence, why do you care?
In court, “she said so” is evidence, as long as she’s willing to say it again on the stand. If the accusation is of something that doesn’t leave physical evidence — i.e., she claims a grope instead of full intercourse, or claims it happened ten months ago and she only just now found the courage to report — it will be “realistic.” (And don’t worry, there’ll be an expert in “counterintuitive victim behavior” to explain that her “delayed report” is perfectly normal for real victims and in no way reduces her credibility. It’s not just realistic – it’s positively scientific!).
Whether it will be believed is a separate question, but there are people like this and that, who think “believing the victim” is a social duty…and they can get jury duty, as can the people they influence.
Also FYI, the mods on reddit’s r/technology board are suppressing this story on the flimsy premise that SJWs attempting to smear notable engineers isn’t “about technology”. Since they routinely allow stories that aren’t about technology in any way at all, it’s obvious that they’re full of shit.
@Random Observer yeah, but they also don’t think that articles about SOPA, Comcast, Bitcoin, the EFF, the NSA, the FCC, net neutrality, Aaron Swartz, Flappy Bird, or Tesla are about technology, so the most probable hypothesis is that they’re generically full of shit. They got kicked out of the default subscription list.
One thing for sure: the tech women making false claims did not consider their “targets” Alpha men they wanted to bed. Women are absolutely cruel to Betas, Omegas, etc.. They despise “lesser”‘ men because they are the only men who show interest in them–correctly so, as I’m sure virtually all of these tech women are 5s at best–thus, they feel cheated out of their rightful Alpha sex and take it out on any Beta they can.
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907&cpage=1#comment-1649762
“relax on 2015-11-04 at 13:15:28 said:
Eric, you have no evidence of this actually happening. Linus is obviously a popular person and people (including women) will flirt with him.
I say this out of love, you need help with your paranoia.
Also remove this article, all you’re doing is making every single woman look like an enemy.”
——————————
Wow. Just Wow…
The evidence is overwhelming and self-evident, but only if leave your preconceived biased at the door. But let’s just dismiss all this and just paint it as “some innocent women just flirting with the man” Really? If you insult your own intelligence that’s your choice, do not attempt that on others. So thanks but no thanks.
So you, with your superior IQ, your highly developed intellect, are telling “out of love” to E.S.R., with a false appealing of affection (read typical female manipulation), that he needs help with a psychological disorder, you know, one of those that needs to be determined only by a professional treating the patient. (Not by any psychiatrist/psychologist, only by the one with the proper knowledge of the subject, after years of interviews and treatment.
Yeah, that was not a passive aggressive ad-hominem attack at all, that was just a medical evaluation from a concerned and innocent person…
And to top it all, this strawberry is just delightful:
“Also remove this article, all you’re doing is making every single woman look like an enemy”
So now you dictate to esr what he should do in his own damn blog, with the perfect blend of condescendence and bossiness only attained by third wave feminists. Bravo! you win my cookie of the day.
@Aaron “So now you dictate to esr what he should do in his own damn blog, with the perfect blend of condescendence and bossiness only attained by third wave feminists. Bravo! you win my cookie of the day.”
I propose we implement code in apache httpd to give every SJW a special diversity cookie to celebrate the unique snowflakeness of their special nature.
Then we can check for the cookie when serving web pages to protect those who have it from anything that might trigger them, like discussion of technology or free speech.
I shall call it the “Padded Safety Web”.
This problem is not limited to geekdom. I’ve seen essentially the same discussion in business and political forums, although the issue was usually framed in terms of how unfair it is to women that selfish men will not risk mentoring or being alone with them.
But given the climate, why would a man risk his career or marriage? Having sown the wind…
ESR: when I clicked on the first link in Nancy Lebovitz on 2015-11-04 at 21:26:14 said…, I was linkjacked to http://media.myspace.com/fiveminutestothestage/video-theater/sam-smith/109502471?hover=1&locationId=417896.
(A second try was unaffected; also copy-the-link-to-a-new-window.)
Is it you or is it me? (Firefox 41.0.2 for Mac OS X 10.10.5.)
>Is it you or is it me? (Firefox 41.0.2 for Mac OS X 10.10.5.
Dunno. Can’t be sure I’m finding the right link. Can you paste it into a reply?
@TriggerFinger now that would be some poetic justice right there… if we could just get rid of so much hate and division, so much gender war with no meaning and no end, if we could code solutions to these bugs of society, or at least comment them out…
So much love is needed in the world, and so much brain power and energy is wasted in generating division and hatred… so sad indeed…
But I’m confident, as history as always shown, with courage to speak up and peaceful resistance, the good in our human nature will always triumph over the misery in our minds.
As has been mentioned the SJWs want to impose a Taliban type of society just with women running things instead of men. When civilization becomes incompetent and effete the weak-minded and evil flock to barbarism. We see it overseas and we’re seeing it in this country.
This won’t end well especially for the SJWs.
I tried that in safari, OS X 10.11, worked fine. Odd – went right to a page with the iinterview with Yuri Bezmenov
> If it’s really just a shell script that just needs to be “run”, why is it being run by a
> person instead of a crontab?
Because Fred didn’t have root or sudo access, and the script only needed to be run once.
Jeff Read on 2015-11-04 at 12:16:18 said:
> The hilarious bit is that when they’re right, they get the sides wrong: the modernist
> movement in art, for instance, was recently revealed to be a CIA psyop!
Hey dipshit, when did modernism start?
When was the CIA founded?
Winter:
> I have never heard of any other country where men get on a public sex offenders
> list for peeing against a tree. If you now of such countries, please inform me.
Dude, no one here thinks it’s a good idea. We just have other things we’re more worried about.
OTOH, being fixated on public urination…
To add to the list of professions where this happens, people I know told me years ago that doctor friends faced this accusation and had to always have a third person in the room from then onwards. I don’t know how common it is in the medical profession, but at least some doctors have also had to put in such safeguards.
This is indeed scary. It is, I think, a consequence of a change detected by Charles Murray a few years ago. Short version: gauged by political self-identification, all major population segments are centrist, moving slightly to the right, except “Intellectual upper class”, which has moved far out to the left over the last 40 years.
This is the segment of society that does the thinking for the whole. And they’re all going down a rabbit hole, and there’s no one to respond. The greater the mass of common thinking, the greater the pressure for uniformity, the less respect for dissent. This is a positive feedback loop that could take civilization over a cliff with it.
An analogy I thought of just recently: Japan in the 1930s. The men with the guns all went mad. They were convinced of their absolute rightness – and there was nothing to check them.
ESR:
“Nancy Lebovitz on 2015-11-04 at 21:26:14 said:
Aaron, thanks for the link. The man was a delightful talker, and for all I know, everything he said was true. Or at least everything he said which wasn’t a prediction.
If anyone would rather read the interview about just how malevolent and effective Soviet foreign policy was from the point of view of a KGB agent, here’s a transcript.”
The link is http://uselessdissident.blogspot.com/2008/11/interview-with-yuri-bezmenov.htm – it was under the word transcript.
>The link is http://uselessdissident.blogspot.com/2008/11/interview-with-yuri-bezmenov.htm – it was under the word transcript
Worked for me once I added the ‘l’ at the end.
@William
“Dude, no one here thinks it’s a good idea. We just have other things we’re more worried about.”
But I think these are linked. It is the very same mind-set that destroys the lives of people when they are accused of being sexual predators when they transgress some byzantine Taliban rules of behavior. Whether it is the Sex offenders registry, the PC crowd, or the SJWs.
> flashes your teenage daughter
Unless you raised her in a closet, she’s already seen better on the internet…
@Romeo Lovesauce: Me thinks I found a communist! After all, only a communist would worry about a fifth column… After all, it was the communist government in Madrid who were being undermined by the fifth column…
(A simplification of history that makes as much sense, if not more, as Romeo Lovesauce’s posts.)
Also, I was at one of ESRs dojos (not the current one) once. I was talking to him and his wife, when she had to do something else. As soon as she was out of the room, ESR pushed me up against the wall and kissed me forcibly! He then patted my bottom and said that no one would believe me and not to make a fuss. I was so shocked at what had happened that I then just left crying and never went back to that dojo, and gave up martial arts altogether for a time.
Moral of the story is: You don’t need to actually be alone with someone allege assault, and it doesn’t need to happen recently. If you really wanted to cause havoc, you could allege assault that happened some years ago (at a conference or otherwise).
ESR: Have you actually asked Linus straight out whether this allegation is true? If not, why on earth not?! It’s a shameful thing to say without this minimum of fact checking.
>ESR: Have you actually asked Linus straight out whether this allegation is true? If not, why on earth not?!
Haven’t, because I think the odds of getting an answer at all seem to me to be be very low. Linus does sometimes answer my mail, but has zero interest in borrowing the kind of political trouble talking about this would land him in.
To me, I look with big eyes on this situation.
Is is a speciality of the USA? of the American student scene? American IT scene?
.
I don’t hope that this silly behaviour of some silly fe,males will come also to (my) Europe.
But I fear it will: EVERY American fashion was copied here in the past, and we also have our handful of embarrssing feminists (degree of increase: gender megaphones, Gender-Troeten).
Personal experience: I work for a major tech company. On a project last year, a female consultant was padding her expense reports by up to $500 per week. Project Manager got suspicious and started asking questions. Next thing he knows, there’s a “hostile environment” complaint filed with HR for alleged sexist language, and his manager told him to drop the investigation because it could be construed as retaliation.
She’s still with the company, and has a leg up for promotions and avoiding layoffs for a couple years, because not giving her a promotion or laying her off could be called retaliation too.
This is common practice is almost every industry. Wise men never, ever allow themselves to be alone with a woman, unless a significant history and trust has been established. Doing otherwise is absurdly risky and stupid. Most women are normal rational beings. Some are not and have been taught that they can lie to get ahead. Some are terribly vindictive and may decide to destroy a man just because of some slight. Some believe every negative thing that happens to them is due to sexism and respond aggressively to everything. Wise, professional men have known this for years. Young men in youthful industries seem to think things are different now and since they are certainly not sexist and respect professional women, they can ignore this practice. They will learn the hard way.
“I’m going to take my source’s implied advice. And view “sexual assault” claims fitting this MO with extreme skepticism in the future.”
Rather than just refusing to come closer than 10 meters to any woman-in-tech. That’s why Ada Initiative’s followers and campaigns are successful: their male “victims” and their companions just don’t want to establish a professional attitude and refuse personal lures from anyone, instead they keep doing their attempts on women, and decide to ignore accusations against people presumably going too far.
Just apply their policy and wait until some women on conferences complain about a less familiar or personal atmosphere. Anyway, implicitly “excluding” women from working groups can now be reasoned by accusations of presumed sexual assault, disturbing a focussed and purposeful atmosphere of non-involved participants. One does not simply teach people to stfu, but it’s possible.
Thanks for answering my question. I’ll wait until this goes broader and Linus gives a response, to see whether it gets any more plausible.
But considering that claiming something bad happened some years ago is a more likely way of getting support (as people will have forgotten details, and might misremember reality with a little prompting), I doubt it …
Seen on IRC this morning:
“re http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 , thanks for speaking up; I’m too scared to, myself.”
I really can’t understand, why are some people opposed to this – I mean, even feminists say that it’s male privilege in tech to be able to have one-on-one conversations behind closed doors without fear of sexual assault, implying women are afraid to have one-on-one convos with men so they should actually love this (who cares about reasons anyway, end justifies the means) – http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Male_Programmer_Privilege_Checklist#Sexual_safety .
And to people saying that this is unfounded conspiracy theory – if programmers face dire consequences for joking between themselves when completely unrelated woman can hear them (Donglegate affair), only an idiot wouldn’t take precautions (and unlike some naive people speaking about recordings – unless you have recording on 24/7 , you’ll have never proof something didn’t happen when you were actually alone, so you’d better not have solo room at tech conferences)
relax on 2015-11-04 at 13:15:28 said:
” … Also remove this article, all you’re doing is making every single woman look like an enemy.”
Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
Just want to point out that although you do have to watch out for feminist women, obviously, you have to watch out for their male friends too! After Paul Nungesser was cleared by his university tribunal, mattress girl got a MALE friend to accuse Nungesser of sexual harrassment/abuse. He got cleared of those charges too, but it’s a clear sign of what’s to come.
Can anyone tell me how – in principle – Ada is any different from Stormfront? What are Ada’s bona fides in regard to men as opposed to the KKK’s bona fides as opposed to black folks? If anyone did an analysis of the rhetoric of white supremacists and Ada would the lack of positive profilings of the targeted group be any different? I’m pretty sure both would be at 100% negative.
If I recall there’s a reddit thread “stormfront or SJW”
If I recall there’s a reddit thread “stormfront or SJW”
Like this one?
Holy fucking Hell, ESR. You’ve really been on the downswing for a good 15 years, now — basically, ever since Netscape opensourced Mozilla. But between this and blaming ACA for your financial ills… you have lost ALL credibility. Except, of course, in the anti-women conservative echo chamber. You must be so proud to be a story on Brietbart.
There was a time I cared about your opinion. I will now do my absolute best to show people just how mentally deranged you are. Some, I don’t have to, however; here’s a response to my posting your story, from thee BBS I’m on:
“Nov 5, 2015 10:23 from *****
Heh. Remember when ESR wasn’t a deranged narcissistic living joke at his own expense?
Me neither.”
I couldn’t have put it better myself.
Good riddance, sir.
So Eric Raymond is a bad guy because he doesn’t supply hard and fast proof, but for the poor schmuck who gets falsely accused? The accusation is enough to ruin his career. No proof required. And while it may seem unfair to apply the warning to all, remember you only have to trust the wrong person once to be screwed for life.
If organized feminists are trying to falsely accuse men of sexual assault then how do we have a rape culture? It seems to me this blogger post is correct:
http://antifeministsite.blogspot.com/2015/09/does-america-have-false-rape-culture.html
America has a false rape culture. Its becoming very easy to falsely accuse a man of rape or sexual assault and have him arrested, expelled from school or fired from a job.
Huh. “sed s/men/Jews/g” is kind of fascinating in a “Well, that’s just uncomfortable to read” kind of way.
“Pastors and church leaders (the careful ones anyway) have had to follow this rule for a long time.”
My church went to the considerable expense of replacing all its classroom doors with doors having windows. The concern was accusations, false or otherwise, of child molestation, but the principle seems to be the same.
As someone who’s been following GamerGate for the last year+, I am absolutely unable to convey in English how extremely unsurprised I am at this news.
“No bad tactics, only bad targets.”
Ken’s comment is classic social justice crusading.
An extremely specific anti-male ideology makes inflammatory comments.
Members of targeted group push back.
Pushback is proof we hate women and are MRAs.
By this logic Jews and blacks are anti-gentile, anti-white cuz neo-Nazis and KKK.
Because we all know that the ACA has been an unqualified success for everyone, right, Ken? Eric’s just mad that he isn’t saving more than the $2,500/year he was promised! /sarc
Part of what’s going on is that society is looking more malleable– Social Justice was simmering along in universities for decades, and then somehow it got out into the mainstream. (Anyone know how that happened?) I’m amazed that “white male” went from a neutral descriptor or even a default to a slur in less than a decade.
I’m not optimistic that we’re going to end up with anything amiable, but the current situation isn’t necessarily stable.
Back to the KGB guy– he made a weird claim that he could stay sober while pouring vodka into naive intellectuals because he had a pill. Anyone know anything about alcohol-nullifying pills?
More generally, it may be that this discussion is making me more cynical, but I’m listening to this charming fellow, and all the sudden it occurs to me that he’s saying “I’ve been lying my whole life, but now I’m telling you the truth”. He might be telling the truth, but I’d look for independent verification of what he says. Also, it might just be less embarrassing to admit you’ve been working for the bad guys than to admit that your organization is less capable than you thought.
@Nancy Lebovitz:
> then somehow it got out into the mainstream.
Is it really in the mainstream? Most people are still oblivious; to the extent any of these shenanigans make the news they still have the flavor of “Man bites dog.”
Patrick off course it’s gone mainstream. In 2011 The Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights at the U.S. Dept. of Education Russlynn Ali sent out the “Dear Colleague” letter basically extorting colleges into setting up a parallel legal system of kangaroo courts in cases of harassment and rape devoid of due process and legal representation or risk losing funding under Title IX. There is no doubt that was a result of this gender feminist movement lobbying for what I said earlier: if men aren’t breaking the laws then change them until they do. Such show trials carry no legal weight outside the colleges but can nevertheless break a career as surely as Ivy League anti-Jewish quotas could in the ’40s.
@Patrick Maupin: “Social justice” is totally mainstream, in the sense of widespread and unchallenged. Too bad Hayek’s critique did not demolish it decades ago.
If the anti-SJWs want to win, I’d say target that concept. As Napoleon said, destroy the enemy where he is strongest, and you’ve defeated him. Much of SJW ideology rests on “social justice,” and if that can be demolished, the whole edifice comes down.
Follow my father’s two simple rules of personal public conduct, and you won’t ever have a problem.
1. Appearance matters. It is not enough to conduct oneself properly in public. One must also maintain the _appearance_ of proper conduct.
2. Open door policy. Anyone could come to him for help at any time. But the door always remained opened. ( He was a professor.)
In 40 years of close contact with numerous female undergraduate and graduate students, he never had a problem. That lack of problems is notable because his program attracted young and mid-career women. Sexual harassment -in both directions- was an ever present issue.
I don’t see what is so terrible of expecting the public figures of the open source movement to adhere to the same code of conduct my father maintained for decades.
NakkiNyan on 2015-11-03 at 23:53:54 said:
They are more likely to call the cops for illegal recording, having a recorder strapped to you falls under wiretapping in many states in the US.
I have an iPhone 6 Plus in my shirt pocket. The camera naturally faces outward, above the top of the shirt pocket. You have no way to know if I’m recording. And a complaint that I recorded without your permission, and thus defeated your false sexual harassment accusation, is not going to go anywhere.
“That was prior to the massive growth in women’s studies, gender studies, oppressed minority studies and so forth.”
That’s the key issue. Where are all these grievance studies graduates going to go? What is a certified Professionally Offended to do with their qualification? You train people to become parasites and guess what?
Their MO is to badger an employer about some manufactured grievance, get an apology, get a code of conduct, get an office of diversity set up to enforce it and finally get themselves hired as witch hunters to terrorize the staff that does the productive work for them to parasitize off of.
Yeah, mainstream– I remember Time magazine had a piece about colonialist elements in the movie Avatar. (The non-Airbender Avatar.) And there’s SJ elements on NPR.
The hard thing is that there are true parts of SJ. People really are bad at understanding that other people have different experiences,m and not just bad at it, but very apt to stubbornly insist that other people don’t have the experiences they say they have.. TriggerFinger’s parody about womansplaining wasn’t far off.
To my mind the big problem with SJ is that they believe their intentions are magic. People tend to judge themselves and people they like by their intentions, and people they don’t like by their results. For example, if a plane is shot out of the sky, you’re more likely to believe it was an accident if your government or an ally did it, and intentional if an enemy did it.
Glyer’s pathological liars have glommed onto our comments and declared us all women-hating MRAs. That’s funny since their daffy ideology declares the last 100 years of SFF literature, all of video gaming and the entirety of human history to be that anyway.
It’s amazing how many of them have never heard of Adria Richards, Shanley Kane, the UVA/Rolling Stone rape hoax, read Ada’s hysterical Geek Feminist timeline of sexual harassment, their own support for the #JustListen hashtag which basically does away with due process, the Mattress Girl hoax, factually examined their own lies about “rape culture” which also do away with due process and equal protection, their own cult’s comments which reduce profiling all men as potential rapists to be “hurt feelings” and “fee-fees,” the way they unilaterally enroll people into conservative and MRA movements they can’t prove with quotes, their daffy idea men default to privileged misogynists, their equally stupid and unsourced claims men feel “entitled” to woman’s bodies, the cab driver in the U.K. who only avoided prison because of attempted rape because his iPhone was recording, the lesbian at the U of Nebraska who faked her own assault, the nut at the U of Wyoming who faked rape threats, rape expert fantasy author Jim Hines own commitment to due process by Tweeting “Can’t we just throw Bill Cosby in jail already?” (paraphrased), colleges institutionally redefining “rape” as regret over a drunken one-night stand where only the man is at fault, and a hundred other things I could mention.
The days of declaring us all homophobic, Islamophobic, transphobic, racist, misogynists and pretending that is an argument are over. That ended when we found out your lies about “diversity” were nothing more than a cult which hates men, whites and heterosexuals and pretends a half-Irish, half-Arab “Muslim” guy who eats pork brought up in Detroit can write more “authentic” Arab fiction than a white Christian-America who has actually lived in the Middle East or that a half-Asian Parisian who speaks no Asian languages can write more “authentic” Asian fiction than a Polish guy who speaks a SE Asian language and has spent far more time there. Everything this cult says is a lie since it is a cult based on racism and supremacy and the idea knowledge is in the blood, a thing the KKK also believes.
@James May:
> In 2011 The Assistant Secretary for Civil
Yeah, I know all that, and yeah, that’s bad, but no… co-opting part of government may be necessary to making it mainstream, but does not mean it’s mainstream. Cf. winter’s discussion about peeing in public and being on a sex offender registry.
@PapayaSF:
> … in the sense of widespread and unchallenged.
The parts that are widespread, _as understood_ by the mainstream, are IMO fairly innocuous. Social mores are one thing. I don’t think mainstream quite understands things like the subversion of the laws mentioned by James May yet.
@Nancy Lebovitz:
> insist that other people don’t have the experiences they say they have…
I don’t think that’s quite it. Mainstream assumes there is something else going on, as in “you must have asked for it.” The modern day equivalent of “Yeah, you got raped, but what were you doing walking on the street in that part of town at 3:00 AM?”
And this is why I’m wondering if it’s really “mainstream” yet. AFAICT, mainstream has not yet seen enough of this shit to say “there but for the grace of God go I.”
Assuming “Ken D’AMbrosio” is not a sock puppet, a little Googling reveals an appearance of years long antipathy for ESR. Any praise he has is expressed within that context (“I liked this one idea, but…”).
He doth protest too much, methinks.
(He would’ve done a much more persuasive job by arguing the actual points in lieu of an ad hominem.)
having a recorder strapped to you falls under wiretapping in many states in the US.
Where many is California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington, some of them having various nuances. The others are one party consent states, if one party, that is, yourself, consents to the recording, you’re good.
This is one of the stupidest and most childish things I’ve ever read on the internet. Maybe you all should talk with some real liberals instead of having these imagined conversations with one dimensional straw men who only live inside your own head. But hey, if it makes you all feel good that you can defeat your own one dimensional ridiculous stereotypes of what feminism is about, go for it. But it’s wankery of the first order, and don’t mistake it for reality.
>This is one of the stupidest and most childish things I’ve ever read on the internet. [etc…]
May I gently suggest that if you want to refute stereotypes about “liberals”, you should start by not exemplifying them yourself?
What makes this even more of a problem that even if the accusations are false, the law will side with the female 9 times out of 10.
As I see it, Eric, your post is problematic; public discussions of this sort can lead to prejudiced behavior, and as “news” goes your post is not very helpful. The post doesn’t give specific answers as to which individuals are targeted (other than noting Linus has been targeted in the past,) which individuals are doing the targeting or which tech conferences are being targeted. Your report doesn’t mention when this plan is supposed to take place or what, in particular, is motivating these individuals. Is the motivation ideological? Is it financial? Is this a honeytrap being run by anti-OSS individuals/companies? In short, I don’t see much who, what, when, where, or why in your top post, though there is considerable speculation…
Your whole report might as well read “Sources say ebil feminazies plan to attack Open-Source luminaries, including Linus!” When I actually break it down, the whole thing is about as useful as a headline in the National Enquirer. Furthermore, while the report is very light on details, it does seem to be doing a great job – 200-plus posts later on this thread – of focusing suspicion and dislike on women in tech – and I don’t believe that this is your intent.
Eric, I believe that for all your faults you’re an honest broker and I trust your goodwill. I also believe this post is doing more harm than good.
IMHO, what your should have done is sent out a private email to anyone you see as being in danger, possibly including details you can’t discuss in public. This would make the warning more believable, more specific, and more useful. Following your non-public email, you should have kept your mouth shut.
>As I see it, Eric, your post is problematic
Uh huh. You know, if you want to not be mistaken for an SJW memebot, “problematic” has joined the list of duckspeak words, along with “privilege”, “microaggression”, and “misogyny”, that you should probably avoid.
>IMHO, what your should have done is sent out a private email to anyone you see as being in danger, possibly including details you can’t discuss in public.
I don’t know what the entire list of people in danger is. Besides, I want to attack the public credibility of these advocacy groups – after repeated incidents like Donglegate and the scalping of Tim Hunt (who still hasn’t gotten his job back and is still being slimed in the press despite the record completely clearing him). They’re attacking my culture and my people and it’s long past time we took the war to them.
I wrote:
>They’re attacking my culture and my people and it’s long past time we took the war to them.
In case it’s not clear, none of this is about women in tech. Or minorities in tech. Or gays in tech. I’m exactly as libertarian as you’d expect on this – anybody who can pull the freight is welcome and twitching about things like skin color or shape of genitalia or what thing you like to stick into what thing is beyond wrong into silly.
What this is about is the SJWs’ attempt to fundamentally transform the hacker culture and STEM in general from an (imperfect, but honestly trying) meritocracy into a perfect hell-pit of identity-group politics, grievance-mongering, and rage-mobbing. Anything I can do to prevent that, I must.
They’ve noticed you doing so, or at least the anklebiting gerbils among them have. Details sent privately.
Casey, what do “real liberals” know about feminism? Don’t you mean what do people who do research know about a given subject? Is there some PhD about feminism granted to liberals I am unaware of? I can’t speak for anyone else but my “ridiculous stereotypes” are based on 2 1/2 years of immersive research. If anyone knows more about the “feminism” promoted in video gaming, comics and SFF in the context of a comparative analysis of that ideology’s origins from de Beauvoir to Butler I’d like to know who the hell it is.
As for Troutwaxer, no one is focusing on a “dislike of women in tech.” We are focusing – not on sex and race as does this obnoxious ideology – but on actual individuals both male and female who self-define as members of this ideology in both their rhetoric and descriptions of themselves.
Because Casey’s hallucinations trump actual experience.
@ Troutwaxer
I agree that this post has struck a nerve with a lot angry people, and also served as a lightning rod for some ranting. However, venting can be therapeutic and the root danger is real, as evidenced by the examples cited (Eich, Hunt, etc). I don’t know how long you have been a regular at this blog, but Eric has a solid track record of getting these things right and would not have posted unless it was important and timely. A&D is not place for flame bait and the unintelligent do not hang around for very long.
“[Ken] doth protest too much, methinks.”
Well, given that he’s still defending Obamacare, it’s pretty clear that he’s a hard-core cultist. Most of my liberal Dem voter acquaintances have taken to looking embarrassed and attempting to change the subject whenever Obamacare comes up.
Let’s see:
1) Doubling (or more) of the “affordable” premiums on the individual side.
2) Hundreds of millions of dollars blown on exchanges that (in some cases, such as Oregon) didn’t manage to enroll a single recipient.
3) A cost of $80,000 (!) per enrollee on the taxpayer side.
4) All this resulting in about the same number of uninsured individuals as there were under the last quarter of Bush II.
Defending a disaster of that magnitude is classic cult behavior. Thus, anything Ken says may be safely ignored.
“Your report doesn’t mention when this plan is supposed to take place or what, in particular, is motivating these individuals.”
Power and money. Duh.
This is all so very simple. Actual people like Adria Richards, Dave Futrelle, Shanley Kane, John Scalzi, Brianna Wu, Anita Sarkeesian, N. K. Jemisin, attack men, whites and heterosexuals as an entire group. They do that in the fashion of classic hate speech: they transform that demographic into an ideology by creating demonization theories about “white privilege” and “rape culture” and then pretend to “critique” that entire group.
Any member of that racial and sexual group which pushes back against those real people with real names is deemed a racist, a transphobe, a homophobe, and a misogynist. In other words they lie and claim we do what they do.
That con game wouldn’t fool anyone but a child.
@Tylerh
I don’t see what is so terrible of expecting the public figures of the open source movement to adhere to the same code of conduct my father maintained for decades.
You really don’t understand.
We’re not talking about just “don’t take a girl into a private room”
We’re talking about people who – despite being willing to play cards against humanity in a semi-public venue – are willing to publicly shame people over a semi-private joke because she was offended. We’re talking about not getting on an elevator alone. We’re talking about having witnesses adn recorders 24×7. And even when there ARE witnesses – see Tim Hunt – people will lie to gin up offence against what you didn’t actually do.
It’s that, no matter how public, or how many witnesses, you will be attacked for what you said, what you said taken out of context, or even for something made up, and the simple rules you posit are NOT enough to save you.
You mean we shouldn’t teach women how to handle a “rape-me-not” (Glock, S&W, Ruger, etc.) so they can defend themselves?
Anecdote: I live in Wyoming and was out on a Sunday drive a few weeks ago and crashed my car in a washed out section of “not quite off the” road. Both responding deputies assumed I had a firearm – the conversation was interesting as they asked about “weapons”, until I said – “Do you mean a gun?” and I happened not to be carrying – this was an accident and they just were going to drive me back to an inhabited area, so it wasn’t like an arrest, they simply assumed I would have a gun. In the Equality State, it is strange NOT to constitutional carry, openly or concealed.
@Ken D’AMbrosio
How precious! Got a live one!
You come here, and expect us to “listen and believe” instead of believing our eyes and ears.
We’ve observed witchhunt after witchhunt, again and again, where accomplishments do not matter, hell, the very truth does not matter, but people will be damn well torn down and cast aside for simply having the “wrong ideas” – even if they really weren’t. (See “Tim Hunt”)
You’re full of BS. You dissemble about the nature of the conversations that are held here – but then what else would I expect from you? You declared your side, and we know how the sides behave. You certainly fit the bill. Way to go. Planning the party for the next “great leap forward”? Don’t plan too far ahead, the useful idiots are usually the next up against the wall along with the people who thought they were sufficiently faithful.
Chairman Mao would be proud. You’re finally going to get it “right” this time…
> Besides, I want to attack the public credibility of these advocacy groups
But that’s not what you are doing. You did not suggest any action regarding advocacy groups, you suggested avoiding being alone with all women. And your use of “collective guilt” implies [I think wrongly, but word choice is important] that you are framing it as a punishment (i.e. you want to punish all women) for the rather than as a pragmatic means to avoid being targeted.
I think at the very least you should never have made the aside about collective guilt, since this isn’t about punishing the (collectively or otherwise) guilty.
Ken D’AMbrosio on 2015-11-05 at 10:37:49 said: Holy fucking Hell, ESR. You’ve really been on the downswing for a good 15 years, now — basically, ever since Netscape opensourced Mozilla. But between this and blaming ACA for your financial ills… you have lost ALL credibility. Except, of course, in the anti-women conservative echo chamber. You must be so proud to be a story on Brietbart […] There was a time I cared about your opinion. I will now do my absolute best to show people just how mentally deranged you are […] Good riddance, sir.
Thanks Ken for a perfect example of the SJW smear template I mentioned previously. A copy of a copy of a copy, substance free, heavy on the demonization.
This is the kind of comment style that began the smear campaigns against Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens in the atheist community. A precise copy in fact. Zero substance, 100% accusation.
Sorry Kenny, these kinds of filth tricks have lost almost all of their efficacy. Time for you clowns to learn some new tricks.
Is your SJW smear template anything like Larry Correia’s Internet Arguing Checklist?
J. C. Salomon said:
Is your SJW smear template anything like Larry Correia’s Internet Arguing Checklist?
More from the same playbook – distract and derail with irrelevancy when you are told you are naked.
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907&cpage=1#comment-1650481
Standing ovation.
*clap clap clap clap…*
So big deal Random. He’s suggesting a chaperone. Not exactly Jim frickin’ Crow. A hundred years ago chaperones were common. It wasn’t demonizing anyone any more than locking your house is demonizing anyone. We all know the climate in America has changed. Some college profs don’t close the door to their office when alone with students. Can you blame them? Blame the people who created this atmosphere, who, by the way, have names. Ada is one of them. If Tim Hunt can’t survive a lie in front of a crowd, who can survive a lie alone? It’s he-said, she-said and these people know it. The fact this is poisoning everything is precisely our point. If Jessica Valenti, John Scalzi and Shanley Kane were kicked to the side of the road we wouldn’t have this toxic atmosphere of irrational suspicions of which starts with the other side, not ours of women. Women are the greatest thing in the world. Left to my own devices I certainly wouldn’t be paranoid of them. But I would at a comic-con.
Eric, hi.
My wife (who has more technology degrees than me!) pointd out this discusseion to me, and I’m glad she did. You respected my opinion enough years back to add my guideliines to your “Luxury of Ignorance” essay, and I have to say, this his gotten me as cranky as the poor open source GUI problems you mentioned there. That essay was fun, partly because it covered very real issues. This blog post… isn’t even funny. No one else has a way to verify the claim with no names of open source leaders who’ve actually been accused or of their accusers, an “anonymous source” that no one else can verify, and a respected (if somewhat controversial) women’s political group that has already shut down. It smacks of the accusations made against political rights groups that I’ve been hearing for over 35 years. I have no doubt the suffragettes encountered similar tarbaby-like acusations.
In that 40 years time I’ve seen so many *actual* cases of harassment by men in power that sullying the waters with a poorly grounded and unverifiable claim of entrapment is poisoning the waters and discrediting the women who really are harassed and willing to report it. It’s disingenuous, especially considering some of the alternative reasons your “anonymous source” might have to make such a claim:
1) To discourage technology leaders from mentoring women without burdensome paranoia, thus hindering women’s technology careers.
2) To discredit claims of harassment so that your “anonymous source” will be believed when claims of entrapment are filed.
3) A “4chan” like desire to stir up trouble and muddy the waters, just for fun.
4) A “Black Adder” like “cunning plan”, to ensure that new women in technology are not otherwise engaged and thus more available for your “anonymous source” to find company among the younger, more vulnerable women as they go looking for company.
Don’t laugh too hard at that last one: I’ve actually seen variants of it throughout my education and my career. If you haven’t noticed it, try paying attention to colleagues who you *know* try to pick up the youngsters, students, or interns, and at how some of them officially discourage personal relationships but privately seek them out.
Old stories aside, you’ve got plenty of better topics and themes to cover. I’d expect better.
@Nico: Dear god, but you are transparent.
“1) To discourage technology leaders from mentoring women without burdensome paranoia, thus hindering women’s technology careers.”
Do you meet many Bond villians who escaped from the theater where they were being shown in real life? I mean, seriously: what kind of nefarious personality are you proposing would set out to deliberately discouraging women in technology? I bet you believe the patriarchy is a real conspiracy with secret meetings, too.
“2) To discredit claims of harassment so that your “anonymous source” will be believed when claims of entrapment are filed.”
Or, you know, maybe the anonymous source was telling the truth and there are entrapment attempts being made. This is a kafkatrap: to warn about the existence of entrapment attempts in order to avoid them is taken as evidence of misbehavior,
“3) A “4chan” like desire to stir up trouble and muddy the waters, just for fun.”
If the source was actually anonymous to esr, this might be a concern, but as the source is known to esr, I suspect this possibility has been considered in light of that knowledge and rejected prior to the article being posted. Certainly I trust esr to be a serious person not willing to publicize such claims merely to stir the pot.
“4) A “Black Adder” like “cunning plan”, to ensure that new women in technology are not otherwise engaged and thus more available for your “anonymous source” to find company among the younger, more vulnerable women as they go looking for company.”
See my response to item one; it’s just a different movie the villains are escaping from.
And you wrap the whole thing up with generalized accusations of misbehavior that, being nonspecific, cannot be disproven… or proven.
In closing, “Nico”, I will note that I don’t know you from Adam, but you claim esr knows you and attempt to trade upon that past history. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn’t, but you’re commenting on a blog that allows anonymous comments. If I was esr, I wouldn’t take your claimed identity as a given.
Here’s your problem Nico: where’s this cunning male supremacist movement? Where are it’s gender studies classes enshrined in universities across America? Who is Intel giving money to? Anita Sarkeesian, not Roosh. Who is the Dept. of Education giving covering fire for? What goofball lesbian liberation ideology has sucked the life out of the Nebula and Hugo Awards, comics and gaming? What goofball lesbian liberation ideology has a JournOlist colluding to mass produce ideological same-page media articles in gaming? Are lesbian teachers and speakers being fired for remarks about men far worse than Tim Hunt’s joke? Unless you think Pearl Harbor in is Japan, you might want to reconsider your stance. There is anecdote and there is institution. There are bad people and there are bad institutions and ideologies. Stop running them together to make a point which doesn’t exist.
> This is a kafkatrap: to warn about the existence of entrapment attempts in order to avoid them is taken as evidence of misbehavior,
And to warn about the existence of harassers is taken as evidence of the sort of misbehavior of which such entrapment is an example. A sort of kafkatrap mexican standoff, that can only be resolved by choosing to not automatically believe either over the other.
@Random832: I beg to differ. Warning about the existence of harassers is a content-free, generalized accusation. It bears absolutely no relevant evidence, and I did not claim that it did. In fact, I specifically claimed that it did not. Further, I’m not accusing Nico of anything beyond particularly absurd movie villain fantasies and the use of a probably-unintentional kafkatrap.
I’m not actually accusing him of believing in a Patriarchy with secret meetings and decoder rings, just placing a side bet…
@ Random832: And your use of “collective guilt” implies [I think wrongly, but word choice is important] that you are framing it as a punishment (i.e. you want to punish all women) for the rather than as a pragmatic means to avoid being targeted.
I hadn’t noticed that aspect of Eric’s post, but I absolutely agree. This definitely does put Eric’s motives in question.
>I hadn’t noticed that aspect of Eric’s post, but I absolutely agree. This definitely does put Eric’s motives in question.
You’re both being dimwitted. The “Ladies” was the women in the activist groups, not “all women”. As I’ve already explained once.
@ESR: “What this is about is the SJWs’ attempt to fundamentally transform the hacker culture and STEM in general from an (imperfect, but honestly trying) meritocracy into a perfect hell-pit of identity-group politics, grievance-mongering, and rage-mobbing. Anything I can do to prevent that, I must.”
Including inventing shadowy conspiracies, apparently. I would’ve thought that “a natural at Game” like yourself would be immune to this kind of attack, due to your amazing self-proclaimed ability to convince women that they want to have sex with you. /s
It’s interesting that you attempt to pass this claim off as concern for Linus Torvalds, considering that for all his assholeishness, I’ve never heard of him being creepy to women, whereas I’ve heard it many times about you over the years.
The one upside to this revelation of yours that it might make you less likely to creepily hit on married women at tech conferences in future.
>The one upside to this revelation of yours that it might make you less likely to creepily hit on married women at tech conferences in future.
Yeah, personal sexual accusation in 3…2..1 is part of what I’ve been expecting since this blew up.
Typical SJW tactic. It’s a complete lie, of course. The kind of lie that makes people afraid to speak out, because it’s not just damaging what it’s spoken, it’s predictable in advance – prospective intimidation. Alas for them that my reaction to attempted intimidation is to to punch back – now I’ll fight harder.
The next stage, if the SJWs decide to push it that far, will be the miraculous production of dozens of women who will claim I creeped on them. All lying, of course, but the really creepy thing is that some of them will actually believe it by the time they make the claim. Not out of conspiracy in the normal sense but because their politics has retconned their reality. ESR must be that kind of person, because only that kind of person fails to genuflect to the PC police, therefore he was creeping. All this is as predictable as sunrise; George Orwell would have understood it as part of the normal function of totalitarian ideologies.
And of course this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. I could have sex slaves chained in my basement and it would still be a completely different question of fact whether the heirs of the Ada initiative are trying to honeytrap opensource developers. So this is not just a character-assassinating lie, it’s an irrelevant character-assassinating lie.
Oh god.
I keep wondering what’s happened to all the poor chaps who seem to think women are natural evil conspirators.
It’s just weird.
But the people whom the treatment you suggested (whether that is avoiding mentoring or being in a room with someone, or actively disbelieving sexual harassment claims) should be applied to are all women, especially since you can’t know whether someone you meet actually is an activist member of such a group or not. The only thing left to interpretation is whether it’s intended as a punishment or pragmatic risk mitigation.
“fitting this MO” is, incidentally, an entirely vacuous statement, unless there’s something significant you’re leaving out about how you decide something fits the MO. Anyone who actually commits sexual assault is, obviously, going to do so when alone with their victim, so “accusations where the victim/accuser was alone with the accused” encompasses almost all sexual assault claims, true and false.
>“fitting this MO” is, incidentally, an entirely vacuous statement
Are you being deliberately dense? When a SJW group pulls this kind of stunt it’s probably going to fit an obvious pattern. The identity and prominence of the target will be a major element. A “victim” with a long history of misandrist rhetoric and close affiliation with a (specifically third-wave, not second-wave) feminist activist group will be another. We can also expect no attempt to go to the police, as would be justified and expected if actual sexual assault had occurred. Very careful construction of the accusation so that the victim cannot produce facts or witnesses to refute it, too.
I wrote:
> A “victim” with a long history of misandrist rhetoric
I should have said a more specific thing here. The alleged “victim” that fits the MO most closely would have a communications history full of kafkatraps. This is a leading indicator of the kind of ideological derangement that could make someone think it’s virtuous to ruin a man with false sexual accusations in order to advance the revolution.
@ esr: What this is about is the SJWs’ attempt to fundamentally transform the hacker culture and STEM in general from an (imperfect, but honestly trying) meritocracy into a perfect hell-pit of identity-group politics, grievance-mongering, and rage-mobbing. Anything I can do to prevent that, I must.
I understand your motives a little better now, (and I agree with your motives) but I have to say that your thinking is quite muddled. Let me illustrate with an example: You go to a tech conference and hear a slightly overweight, (10-15 pounds) but otherwise good-looking woman say, “I filed a complaint with HR because I’m stuck in a room full of Dew-guzzling brogrammers who alternately stare at my tits and give me “suggestions” for losing weight. The final straw was when I just got an anonymous dick-pic in my work email.”
So. Is this woman a horrible, evil SJW or does she have real problems with an unpleasant work environment? The simple fact of the matter is that you can’t know.
If you talk to her for an hour, do a careful investigation of her work environment, talk to the “brogrammers” she’s complaining about, and interview her bosses, you might have a good idea of what’s really going on. Or you might not. But what you’ve done in your top post is reduce the problem into an overly-simplistic, black-and-white, wholly ideological paradigm which doesn’t have a prayer of solving the real issues, whatever they may be. You’ve taken a gigantic, very complex set of issues and reduced them to a caricature.
In the real world… there are some very nasty feminists out there. I think the ideology has gone wrong in a major way,* and its ability to deal with real-world issues has deteriorated badly. People who make false rape complaints or complain inappropriately of “hostile work environments” shouldn’t be tolerated. People who encourage that kind of behavior shouldn’t be tolerated. Women with horrible social skills who screw up their relationships with co-workers then cry to HR… fire them.
On the other hand, there are some really rotten male bastards out there in the workforce and they shouldn’t be tolerated either. Dick-pic mailers, harassers, and ass-grabbers need to be quickly removed from any organization that wants to successfully continue.
The real world has both rapists AND women who falsely report rapes. It has both harassers and women with poor social skills who screw up their relations with co-workers then run to HR. It has women who misunderstand what it means to be a member of a strict meritocracy and men who pretend to run a strict meritocracy while actually harassing their subordinates… and the whole thing is inutterably complex while your point of view lacks any complexity. You might as well be screaming “Get off my lawn!” at every passing woman. That’s how your writing portrays you. Its disappointing and I think you can do a whole lot better than that.
And how do you apply this complexity to the problem you describe of “…SJWs’ attempt to fundamentally transform the hacker culture and STEM in general from an (imperfect, but honestly trying) meritocracy into a perfect hell-pit of identity-group politics…” I think you’ve got a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem. Let me correct/simplify it for you:
Assholes make everything worse.
Female assholes, the kind who make false harassment reports, make the STEM fields worse. Male assholes, the kind who harass women to make them leave STEM, or to get sex, make the STEM fields worse. When you discover an asshole of either sex, who follows any ideology, regardless of whether it is your own preferred ideology or one you hate utterly… cast them out of STEM. When you encounter someone with a legitimate complaint, whatever their ideology… help them out. When you discover a person who helps and mentors others, or uses their social skills to settle disputes, or is otherwise a class act, promote them within STEM regardless of their ideology. Reward good code, good science, and good behavior, and always, first and foremost, cast the assholes out!
*Essentially, I’m a second-wave feminist who has a mild tolerance for intersectionality. I think the third wave of feminism is pretty badly confused.
@Troutwaxer
In the real world, people understand that a person’s choice of beverage is not sexism, that being a “brogrammer” (whatever that is) is not a firing offense, that “staring at my tits” is a pretty damned subjective thing to complain to HR about, and that “suggestions for losing weight” are similarly minor offenses that constitute little more than casual discussion to someone not focused on microaggressions. Sure, the latter too *might* be inappropriate in context, but they read like someone who is being hypersensitive to me. And the final straw? Your hypothetical complainer with her hypothetical anonymous dick-pic clearly doesn’t know anything about technology if she thinks that the email can actually be anonymous. THAT she is justified about complaining about, but I’d bet she sent it to herself.
Now, I can’t know that for sure until I look at the headers of the email. But that’s how I would bet. Why? Because no one has been sending dick-pics to random coworkers for decades in any reasonably professional environment, and the people doing that in the first place were about as far from “brogrammers” as could possibly exist. The people sending the dick pics are not the quiet nerds in the corner who are afraid of talking to women. And that this hypothetical woman begins by complaining about dew-drinking brogrammers only tells me that she probably doesn’t even know any actual programmers, just the straw ones in her head.
“On the other hand, there are some really rotten male bastards out there in the workforce and they shouldn’t be tolerated either. Dick-pic mailers, harassers, and ass-grabbers need to be quickly removed from any organization that wants to successfully continue.”
At one time in history, I am willing to believe that such people and such practices existed and were common amongst the particularly rude or powerful (see Clinton). I am not willing to believe that they still exist as a general practice, or that companies ignore such behavior to the point that it can persist without swift and sure legal action. There are always exceptions, of course; but I know which way I would bet on your hypothetical scenario… because I’ve seen real examples of feminist hate-mobs, and I’ve never met a “brogrammer” who would or could send a dick-pic. Be awkward, yes. Dick-pic, no.
I think your whole comment is an example of the false equivalence fallacy. Both sides are neither equally horrible nor equally common. Sexual harassment in the workplace is a problem that has been effectively solved, through the combination of legal penalties and absurdly overbearing HR departments, which is precisely *why* entrapment campaigns, microaggressions, stereotypes, lies (TIm Hunt), and donglegate are required to keep the issue in the news.
I’m not claiming it never happened in the past, or that it never happens now. I’m sure it does. But I can count examples and estimate probabilities when forced to deal in generalities. And when there is a specific incident, by all means investigate it.
Until then, men in tech should continue to exercise the precautionary behavior that has successfully reduced the number of real sexual harassment complaints.
@Troutwaxer: Oh, and one other thing. I don’t go around “casting people out” of STEM, or any other aspect of life. The police do that, after a trial, if the accused is found guilty of a criminal act; or the person’s employer may fire them, hopefully after an investigation and a fair hearing. If someone acts like an ass to my direct knowledge I’m not going to associate with them. But I’m also not going to engage in some sort of ritual excommunication and try to hound them out of the industry based on hearsay or rumor.
That tactic belongs to the
Dark SideSJW side of this farce.@Troutwaxer: I think you are missing the essential conflict between the “cast the assholes out” viewpoint and the SJW/cultural Marxism/intersectional/third-wave feminist view. The latter focuses on “patriarchy” and “cishetnormativity” and “the legacy of colonialism and slavery” and “rape culture” and “structural oppression” and so on. To an SJW, individual assholes merely express the social forces that are the real ideological enemy.
In the more traditional view, the individual is the focus, but that means boring, old-fashioned manners. The essence of “sexual consent classes” can be expressed in seconds: be polite, don’t force yourself on people, and don’t take advantage of them when they’re impaired or unconscious. Boom, you’re done. You don’t need classes or rallies or administrators or departments to express and enforce that. Ah, but to attack patriarchal misogynistic colonialist heteronormative oppression, you do. Scolding people about bad manners is square, but scolding them for vague political generalities is hip! And it can pay better, too.
Old-fashioned manners aren’t “progressive,” they’re the opposite: both more libertarian and more conservative. The original Progressive movements for prohibition and eugenics weren’t about personal responsibility regarding alcohol and reproduction, either. Progressives want to remake society as a whole, coercively, “for our own good.” Nobody can drink because some will get drunk. All men must attend consent classes, because some will be assholes.
I don’t think ESR or anyone else here is defending assault or even bad manners. They’re objecting to turning bad manners into a political issue and using it for leftist political power.
> “Greyhead on 2015-11-04 at 00:55:06 said:
Women love drama, by their nature. It’s hard for us to imagine, because it’s not our nature. “It can’t be. That’s just misogyny…” Until it happens to you. Then you understand real quick.
More women in science and technology is more drama in science and technology. Ask Tim Hunt. You know, the Nobel laureate, decades at the top of his field. Literally hundreds of female scientists he personally mentored to success, not one of which defended him by the way. They took him down like a pack of lionesses.
Think you will fare better? Who the fuck are you in comparison? Some neckbeard.
You wanted women in STEM. You got it.”
This is some of the most small minded, ignorant bullshit I have read in a long, long time. To characterize > 50% of the worlds population from a single IRC conversation requires a particular type of narrow minded prejudice, one that can not be allowed to fester without some sort of rebuke.
Who the fuck are you to judge all women? Some neckbeard.
“Essentially, I’m a second-wave feminist who has a mild tolerance for intersectionality. I think the third wave of feminism is pretty badly confused.”
Am I the only one here who read this and thought about the Judean People’s Front muttering “splitters!”?
>Am I the only one here who read this and thought about the Judean People’s Front muttering “splitters!”?
That would be unjustified. I could actually be described as a second-wave feminist – and on what I’ve seen of your behavior, you could be too. All that takes, really, is acting on the belief that women deserve equal rights before the law and equal opportunity in the workplace and other places people make choices.
The problem is that the divide between second-and third-wave feminism is blurry. What I’ve just described is a sort of idealized, clean version of second wave; other versions, especially as feminism evolved over time, became infected with toxic politics and galloping misandry until we got to the totalitarian memebot swarm that is SJW feminism.
> Am I the only one here who read this and thought about the Judean People’s Front muttering “splitters!”?
Nope, its all Popular peoples front of Judea here. Fuck those bastards.
Reactionary positions cast long shadows.
By the way, has anyone here actually asked Linus about this alleged targeting?
Papaya is right, Troutwaxer; these feminists take a bad man and say they’re typical of men. And we’ve been warning people for years to stop trivializing harassment and rape to the point it throws a shadow on real harassment and rape. And now it’s actually happening. Remember, this cult actually thinks there are men in favor of rape. We do not say these crazed feminists are typical of women. We identify them by name and do not smear them onto 3.5 billion other women. That’s what this cult does for men and whites. That’s what rape culture and white privilege are designed to do. I have no ideological theories designed to smear all women and non-whites.
Sweet Jesus – Reactionary much?
Here’s my attempt to come at the issue from a position that hasn’t been trodden over a hundred times:
My impression is that the alleged sexual assault and misogynist harassment cases that blow up in the media consistently turn out to be somewhere between downright false and lied about (Duke Lacrosse arguably being the canonical example) and princess-on-a-pea thin-skinned hypersensitivity and manufactured outrage (Adria Richards, Tim Hunt). Intuitively, one might think these cases are evidence that such falsehood is widespread. Surely if there were serious cases they’d be getting their slice of attention.
Slate Star Codex, in Toxoplasma of Rage, has a reasonable argument that this isn’t evidence because the media is run by clickbait not honest reporting, and is therefore incentivized to promote weak and false cases in the interests of lining up victim-supporters and evidence-believers against each other, cue outrage, cue attention, cue eyeballs and clicks. So any case you see in the media has been through such a strong selection filter that it’s nowhere near representative.
But I don’t think this is sufficient, because even if I were to be so cynical about the major media outlets that I’d assume absolutely zero honest reporting, I still wouldn’t say it’s all clickbait. There would be a large amount of activism too. When the activists wanting attention for (supposedly) victimized women keep promoting weak cases, this suggests that they either lack strong cases or they have factored truth out of their calculations. Either way, Eric is right that extreme skepticism is the correct response.
Are there counterexamples any here would suggest of sexual assault claims and the like that blew up in the media, were hotly disputed, and turned out to be true and serious? The closest that comes to my mind is the Lewinsky scandal, which is something of an odd duck in that I recall it mostly being prosecuted by the american right for partisan reasons against the american left, with “protect the women” playing a very distant second fiddle. (Which I assume is due to the left-alignment of vanguard feminism.)
>When the activists wanting attention for (supposedly) victimized women keep promoting weak cases, this suggests that they either lack strong cases or they have factored truth out of their calculations.
I think it’s actually weirder than that. As I pointed out earlier, a characteristic of totalitarian ideologies is that your politics retcons your reality. The activists take weak cases, inflate them in their own minds to strong ones because OPPRESSION!!! and are then genuinely bewildered when the cases fall apart. The weak case had become true in the reality in their heads, by a process of politically-driven self-deception.
That’s why a common sequel when one of these cases falls apart is to insist that it was true in essence if not in accident – that because OPPRESSION!!! we must all behave as though it was true. We heard a lot of this after the Duke Lacrosse case; more recently feminist talk about Emma Sulkowicz the mattress girl exhibits the same pattern.
Ah, god old “fake but accurate”. Y’know, they’ve just released a movie about an incident like that; I think it’s called Pravda.
Erik: that’s not quite right. Lewinsky was classic, real sexual harassment of exactly the type that most workers in the US have to attend “training” about every year. If my boss had done that to any of my female peers, he would rightfully have been fired and likely imprisoned.
The media, being leftist activist, followed Hillary’s lead (“vast right wing conspiracy”) in claiming the only possible objection to Bill’s behavior was for partisan reasons. At which point the media was flooded with now infamous pieces by female journalists and non-academic feminists claiming basically that if you vote Democrat you are immune from sexual harassment because abortion on demand for the collective trumps the feelings of individual women.
“So this is not just a character-assassinating lie, it’s an irrelevant character-assassinating lie.”
Actually, it’s not irrelevant, it’s pretty much an absolute proof of the point of the post, since if Nop (accompanied by a couple of those “victims”) could complain to your HR department they could probably get you fired.
What was Mattress Girl’s first instinct when no one believed her? Find a couple of friends to make additional accusations…. just like this clown.
>if Nop (accompanied by a couple of those “victims”) could complain to your HR department they could probably get you fired.
I survived a smear campaign organized by Microsoft. These people are, by comparison, minnows. I laugh at them.
Worth noting that PZ Myers who is himself something sort of a leftie/feminist/SJWish man, wrote some time ago on the Pharyngula blog that he no longer sees it safe to be alone with a female student or coworker. Can’t find a link, maybe when I will have more time I will dig it up.
The point here is that this sounds utterly crazy, but even if one of THEM feels unsafe about things like this, well.
Don’t know US legislation on this but if it is okay there, just put a camera in your office so that you can still have a chat with a female employee without a ridiculous chaperon. It would be gold to get accused, and use the footage to not only defend yourself but hit back with false accusation or defamation or something.
The whole story makes me more comfortable with CCTV “surveillance society” stuff and at some level I even wonder if that is the goal. If I was a “conspiracist” trying to sell that, I would try to make people fear privacy…
“I could actually be described as a second-wave feminist – and on what I’ve seen of your behavior, you could be too. All that takes, really, is acting on the belief that women deserve equal rights before the law and equal opportunity in the workplace and other places people make choices.”
Perhaps, but I refuse to adopt the term for the same reason I refuse to say the words “black lives matter”, even though I firmly believe that all lives, black included, matter: it puts me in league with wackos, crazies, and SJWs (but I repeat myself).
>Perhaps, but I refuse to adopt the term … it puts me in league with wackos, crazies, and SJWs
Fair enough, and I won’t argue with your reasons. But the issue here is not how you describe yourself but whether Troutwaxer’s distinction between second and third wave is meaningful and relevant to the discussion. It is, and you were wrong to invoke that Monty Python sketch at him.
@ESR: “Yeah, personal sexual accusation in 3…2..1 is part of what I’ve been expecting since this blew up.”
I think you posted this ridiculous conspiracy theory because you hit on the wrong person & they threatened to ‘out’ you in public, so you are doing this to pre-empt any accusations. Fact is that you made a pass at my close friend’s wife at a FOSS event. The sad thing is that you’ll probably get away with /that/, but the day will come when your behaviour catches up with you.
Have you ever considered just sticking with your wife & treating other women as peers, rather than as potential ‘conquests’?
>Fact is that you made a pass at my close friend’s wife at a FOSS event.
Fascinating. I’m left wondering whether this is a conscious lie or whether Nop is yet another one of those creatures whose politics has retconned their reality. It doesn’t actually matter in any real sense, but I’m morbidly curious.
Er, to be fair to Nop, I guess there is at least one other possibility. Just once, at a conference in 1999, I recall a woman I didn’t even recall meeting believing that I had groped her. I don’t actually think she was lying, I think she had me confused with someone else. Because, you see, she also thought I was drunk at the time, and I never drink. The least hypothesis I could form was that she was drunk and had honestly fingered the wrong guy. There is an outside chance of an honest mistake here.
I wrote:
>There is an outside chance of an honest mistake here.
On the other hand, one of the ways you can spot fake harassment accusations is the way they fail to emerge until well after the alleged incident, at a time when it becomes politically necessary for the target to be discredited. Nop, dude, you’d be more credible if you had come at me out of the blue rather than just after I’d posted what amounted to an expose that would piss off a lot of feminists. People have seen this movie before; the tactic is getting old.
Well, James, we actually do have to spread this behavior over 3.5 billion women
— because we can’t read minds and know which of the dozens / hundreds of the women we interact with daily are actually the kind of whackjob that will pull this,
— and we don’t dare take the chance of finding out, because like other forms of terrorist, they only have to be lucky once.
@Troutwaxer
>full of Dew-guzzling brogrammers
Isn’t that in itself a negative stereotype? I mean, what useful information do someone’s soft drink consumption habits carry beyond that trying to stick him into a generally low-prestige stereotype and thus make an accusation more believable? This alone would move it from 50% to 60% that the accusation is false. It is a very very old tactic that presenting people as low-prestige makes it easier to believe they do unethical things. And always suspicious, because when people have real evidence they don’t need to do this. Putting it differently, real victims are usually far too upset to really frame things so carefully.
The funniest part is that even on the average, I don’t think the “basement dwelling Dew guzzling neckbeard” stereotype is even more likely to be rude to women, I think they are more of the pedestalizing or white-knighting type. You know all the tip my hat to m’lady jokes on reddit. It is an entirely different story. His problem is that he is both unattractive as fsck and often awkward, so when he tries flirting women get disgusted (for real, as in: foul breath, totally happens) and if the poor loser found a feminist, a feminist usually thinks like most liberals that other people are responsible for her own emotions and therefore figures her rights were violated by forcing her to get disgusted by that foul breath or something. Hence the neckbeards-are-sexist stereotype. Usually they are falling over themselves to be m’ladys most faithful chivalrous knight. (Which is something feminists call benevolent sexism, so they can never win, but anyway, the point is that that stuff does not lead to harassment.)
@Erik&Ian
“The closest that comes to my mind is the Lewinsky scandal, which is something of an odd duck in that I recall it mostly being prosecuted by the american right for partisan reasons against the american left, with “protect the women” playing a very distant second fiddle.”
The Lewinsky case had nothing at all to do with sexual harassment. Lewinsky fell in love with her boss and they had consensual sex. There has never been even a suggestions that either had any misgivings about their affair. Then others started to harass them over it. In a classical move, the Boss betrayed hiss mistress and dropped her when things started to become serious.
There are jurisdictions where it is illegal to have sex with an employee (I believe ao Germany). But that is a different matter.
Nop, if Eric’s such an eeeeevil creepy rapist, how come no woman has come forward to denounce him herself before now? Surely, in today’s environment, they would feel emboldened to do so, perhaps even more than with the average run-of-the-mill scientist or politician. After all, he’s widely hated around the FOSS world and has been since long before this post.
No, sorry. I don’t buy it. Just as the woman mentioned earlier who had an investigation terminated by raising an accusation of harassment is now insulated from getting fired or not getting promoted because retaliation, so, too, is Eric. That sword cuts both ways.
>Nop, if Eric’s such an eeeeevil creepy rapist, how come no woman has come forward to denounce him herself before now?
Wait! Wait! I know the answer! They’re all intimidated by my social power. Or something. I have no doubt there’s an entire volume of volk-Marxist gobbledegook for this. Um, they’ve internalized their oppression? Yeah, that’s a nice catch-all phrase.
One reason I’m treating Nop’s theory that I’m trying to pre-empt an outing as unintentional humor is that, er, I didn’t go to any FOSS conferences between 2004 and 2015. Unless you count Penguicon – and, Jay, as you well know, if I made a pass at a married woman in that social environment, “outing” me would generally be considered rude and almost taboo behavior. It’s true I went to FOSSCON 2015 earlier this year, but there was barely a female in sight there and I am quite, quite sure that no making of passes occurred.
Jeez. The last time I had a sexual interaction with a woman not my wife, she stuck her tongue down my throat and I fled in embarrassment. Oh yeah, I’m a total creep-ball. Lock up your wives and daughters, ESR is coming!
WInter: “The Lewinsky case had nothing at all to do with sexual harassment. Lewinsky fell in love with her boss and they had consensual sex.”
The feminists claim that this must be sexual harassment, because the power imbalance renders any consensuality meaningless (and it’s hard to get a bigger power imbalance than the president of the US vs. an intern!). That is, they claim such situations must be harassment except when Bill Clinton is involved.
Blatant, naked hypocrisy, of course, but that never stopped an SJW.
That’s why a common sequel when one of these cases falls apart is to insist that it was true in essence if not in accident – that because OPPRESSION!!! we must all behave as though it was true. We heard a lot of this after the Duke Lacrosse case; more recently feminist talk about Emma Sulkowicz the mattress girl exhibits the same pattern.”
That’s not just for sexual assault cases. I’m forcibly reminded of Dan Rather’s career ender: Apparently the man still believes in “fake but accurate”…
James May on 2015-11-05 at 22:59:14 said:
> Here’s your problem Nico: where’s this cunning male supremacist movement?
What? I didn’t say the anonymous source was a part of a supremacist movement, or *cunning*. If you’ve never seen “Black Adder”, the “cunning plots” were of this sophistication:
>> Lord Edmund Blackadder: Baldrick, you wouldn’t see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing “Subtle plans are here again!”
Separately: do male supremacist groups exist, and cause trouble? The “sad puppies” who helped poison the Hugo Awards last year are an example. They’re hardly cunning, but they did interfere with the careers of non-white-male writers who should have gotten well-earned Hugo awards. Look it up, please: I couldn’t possibly have invented them. And their behavior is public, traceable, and signed: it’s not vague accusations from an unidentified “anonymous source” about assertions for which there is not a single witness listed.
>The “sad puppies” who helped poison the Hugo Awards last year are an example. They’re hardly cunning, but they did interfere with the careers of non-white-male writers who should have gotten well-earned Hugo awards
Uh huh. I’m sure you believe that war is peace, freedom is slavery, and we have always been at war with Eastasia, too.
@ESR: “just after I’d posted what amounted to an expose”
Your ‘exposé’ is just a pre-emptive strike to establish plausible deniability – at least with the kinds of people who believe in bizarre conspiracy theories. Everyone else will see it as the joke that it is, of course, just as they do when a child claims that the dog ate their homework.
There is a slight confusion of terms here. Third wave and intersectional are the same thing. Second wave embraces both lesbian and equal rights feminism. Therefore the second wave is white feminism. The second wave is generally considered to last from Betty Friedan’s 1963 The Feminine Mystique to Peggy McIntosh’s 1988 essay “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack. “Intersectionality” was coined by the black activist Kimberle Crenshaw a couple years later.
But to make it more confusing, the concept of “intersectionality” has been implicit though not emphasized in lesbian feminism since the beginning and especially when Audre Lorde came onto the scene in the ’70s. The concept is simple: a black lesbian is more oppressed than a white lesbian is more oppressed than a heterosexual woman; there are “intersecting” vectors of oppression. When Audre Lorde spoke of white feminists as being “tools of the patriarchy” in 1979 that is in fact the concept of “intersectionality.”
For me the sole divider is I support equal rights feminism 100%. I reject gay second/third wave feminism as nothing more than a racist, sexist, supremacist cult created by mentally ill sociopaths; it is a diversity arm of the KKK in all but name. It has a phobia of men, whites and heterosexuals that is irrational.
Eric, what’s the etiquette here when someone backs up their argument by citing a tempest in someone else’s teacup? I disagree with Nico regarding the Sad Puppies, but trying to explain why would risk a long digression into a subject that’s previously attracted multiple shitstorms, in a thread where it seems tempers are already running high. I don’t want this to blow up into the Mark Five Standard Endless Internet Argument, but it also seems Nico deserves a reasonable debate rather than being ignored since he’s offered evidence for his position.
(Attempt at a short answer: Sad Puppies is currently run by three women: Amanda Green, Sarah Hoyt and Kate Paulk. Some male supremacist movement, eh?)
>Eric, what’s the etiquette here when someone backs up their argument by citing a tempest in someone else’s teacup?
I think I’m going to simply declare Sad Puppies off topic for this thread and delete any attempt to pursue it. It’s not just that Nico is wrong, it’s that his claim is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
@ESR: “Unless you count Penguicon – and, Jay, as you well know, if I made a pass at a married woman in that social environment, “outing” me would generally be considered rude and almost taboo behavior.”
So am I correct in thinking that you believe that it’s 100% okay to make passes at women at Penguincon, regardless of the circumstances?
>So am I correct in thinking that you believe that it’s 100% okay to make passes at women at Penguincon, regardless of the circumstances?
You meant this as a baiting question, but I’ll give a serious answer because I think my other readers will find it of interest.
In convention fandom it is generally understood that lots of people are poly. Random guy X making a pass at random girl Y is no cause for scandal at all, and the marital status of either is pretty much irrelevant – people generally consider it’s none of their business unless one party won’t take no for an answer or the other party is drunk to the point of incapacitation (which is rare – fans are often hearty drinkers but it’s not within social norms to get that plastered).
But that relaxation doesn’t mean it’s “100% OK”. It’s just as out of bounds to make a pass at someone who is married and declared mono as it would be anywhere else. One of the things that made me uncomfortable about this incident is that the woman came on to me stronger than she really should have without knowing whether I’m mono or poly. That she was drunk at the time is only partial excuse – it was a breach of manners which I’m sure she found embarrassing later.
Reread that last sentence. It contains, or at least implies, the answer you’re looking for. If you’re actually interested in the truth, which I doubt.
“By the way, has anyone here actually asked Linus about this alleged targeting?”
If he says nothing, or even denies it, it’s because he’s just afraid to speak out. And this is somehow not a kafkatrap.
>If he says nothing, or even denies it, it’s because he’s just afraid to speak out. And this is somehow not a kafkatrap.
No. Remember the non-falsifiability requirement. There are lots of reasons for Linus in particular to not get into this fight that don’t involve fear, and I won’t blame or criticize him if he doesn’t. I’m sure you can think of a few yourself.
And, frankly, I don’t need him to confirm. It would be one thing if Linus said “No, I don’t believe I’ve been targeted,”, in which case my source is wrong and my trust is misplaced, game over. As it is, the SJWs have done an excellent job of making my source’s allegation more than 50% credible without Linus’s help. Ask Tim Hunt about that.
“The identity and prominence of the target will be a major element.”
That’s not an M.O. That’s you creating a class of people who you think should be allowed to get away with anything because no-one should believe accusations against them. Maybe most wouldn’t take advantage of that position, but all it takes is one.
> Very careful construction of the accusation so that the victim cannot produce facts or witnesses to refute it, too.
Most people who commit crimes try to avoid evidence or witnesses too. This piece therefore provides absolutely no useful information for distinguishing a false accusation from a true one, since in both the bad actor has an incentive to arrange things that way.
> A “victim” with a long history of misandrist rhetoric
> The alleged “victim” that fits the MO most closely would have a communications history full of kafkatraps.
They’d be such fools not to recruit someone without such a (visible) history to play the role of “victim”, that I’d automatically assumed this was absolutely not part of the M.O.
>They’d be such fools not to recruit someone without such a (visible) history to play the role of “victim”, that I’d automatically assumed this was absolutely not part of the M.O.
I actually think they often are that stupid – or, which amounts to the same thing, that ideologically blinded.
Besides, let’s get real. Who are they going to find to run an entrapment who isn’t so bought in to anti-male ideologizing that she can’t help being obvious and strident about it? I grant you that an exception is theoretically possible, but it’s not the way to bet.
I honestly have no use for any MRA or male supremacist movement in any culture. The problem is that straight white men are simply profiled as defaulting to that. You don’t have to read a lot of Shanley Kane, Adria Richards or the Ada Initiative to understand that. Supremacy is a neutral concept and one could easily detect the institutional presence of such an ideology regardless of the race or sex promoting it. There is massive documentation of such a feminist ideology institutionalized in tech, comics, gaming and SFF. There is no documentation of an institutionalized male version.
Remember, in the case of SFF for example, the entire era 1912-70 is said to default to the equivalent of an ideological homophobic, misogynist KKK, though there is no same-page rhetoric that exists to back up that claim. During those six decades you can’t find five male SFF authors on such a same supremacist ideological page. However in tech, comics, gaming and SFF I can easily find a feminist version of such ideologues with no trouble at all. And they are institutionalized by way of hearings at the U.N., given Intel money, speaking at a wide variety of neutral conferences, given credibility by the HuffPo, Salon, Gawker Media, The Guardian, etc.
This is a con game, and that’s all it is.
“One reason I’m treating Nop’s theory that I’m trying to pre-empt an outing as unintentional humor is that, er, I didn’t go to any FOSS conferences between 2004 and 2015.”
Don’t you know there’s no statute of limitations on being an eeeeevil creepy rapist, you eeeeevil creepy rapist, you?
“But the issue here is not how you describe yourself but whether Troutwaxer’s distinction between second and third wave is meaningful and relevant to the discussion.”
Mrf. Still feels like definitions in an obscure field of endeavor to me, and expecting those of us who aren’t SJWs to understand esoteric terms of art.
> Most people who commit crimes try to avoid evidence or witnesses too.
Between crimes of passion in the heat of the moment, grudge-driven avengers who don’t care if they’re caught, self-perceived untouchables who figure they’re immune to prosecution, ignoramuses who don’t realize that they’re committing a crime, and drunken fools who don’t consider the consequences of their actions, I wouldn’t count on that.
“So am I correct in thinking that you believe that it’s 100% okay to make passes at women at Penguincon, regardless of the circumstances?”
Nop, I’ve been to every Penguicon since the first. (Eric has too, IIRC.) How many cons do you know of that have, as a staple of the lineup, a panel on “Flirting for Geeks”?
Flirting is absolutely part of the culture at Penguicon. So is turning people down. Neither is considered any big deal. It’s not quite to the level of, say, a Renaissance faire, but it’s not your average tech conference, either.
One of the ribbons you can get near the registration table is one with a series of letters on it, and an instruction sheet. The letters signify what forms of interaction you’d like, and you cross out the ones you don’t (with a supplied Sharpie). Simple and effective.
And even that con is being slowly SJWized. There were posters on “consent culture” all over the damned place, including the inside front cover of the con book. I did manage to get the Board of Directors’ and the current and next year’s con chairs’ attention enough about it to get invited to think up alternatives. (As well as invited to submit a series of panels, in response to my complaints about panels on gender and similar claptrap. Eric, I’d like to discuss that with you sometime offline.)
>One of the ribbons you can get near the registration table is one with a series of letters on it, and an instruction sheet. The letters signify what forms of interaction you’d like, and you cross out the ones you don’t (with a supplied Sharpie). Simple and effective.
As Jay says. The purpose of these ribbons is to avoid the kind of breach of manners Honey committed when she tongue-kissed me without knowing my mono/poly status. I don’t remember if I was wearing one at the time; I think I was not. When you don’t see a declaration like that, good manners is to ask, either directly or by a leading question, well before you get to the point of trying to swap fluids.
I am amazed at the violence of the reaction by “Ken D’AMbrosio.”
ESR hit a nerve, it seems.
@ESR. Either (1) your article is factually wrong and no harm has been done to nobody, or (2) it is factually correct and you have been of service to the community by bringing this concern to light – and thank you for that.
A few months ago, I have been assaulted on line by several of these self-styled ‘feminists.’ Believing in a casual discussion at the beginning, I needed time before I realized these persons did not care one bit about who I actually am and what I actually thought and how I felt : they were having a go at me ONLY on the basis of my (MALE) GENDER !! A behavior both reason and education forbid me to have toward a woman or anybody, by the way… Following this event and others, I did further researches and I now believe _contemporary_ militant ‘feminists’ active in Western societies ARE mentally deranged persons. These women should see a shrink, not ‘defend a cause.’ Given that I have no difficulty believing the story in the article.
> I survived a smear campaign organized by Microsoft.
What if it never really ended? A little monetary support within these circles and then wind them up and then they can stand back and watch it play out. I half kid, but as we know “follow the money”.
I was thinking about the disproportionate nature of these attacks by “victimized” groups and how it’s like DDoS, spam, or fishing. These attacks work on the sheer difference in effort. A group comes in and attacks an established community with insinuations or lies. Literally insulting years of work of one, or hundreds, of people and all it takes is a few carefully cut “sound bite” replies to be taken out of context to keep the attack going and the only way to stop it is to capitulate ( sometimes they just get bored ). The fact is it takes a hack only minutes to craft a comment that will elicit the response they need. Hacking the human condition for malicious ends.
Maybe we need some whitehat hacking of the human condition rather than take the reactionary path which, more than likely, is just playing into their hand.
@esr
>You’re both being dimwitted. The “Ladies” was the women in the activist groups, not “all women”. As I’ve already explained once.
It doesn’t matter what you meant; what matters is what the Left can twist your words into meaning.
You really ought to meet Jeff Goldstein, who has written extensively on this Leftist tactic.
In short, “Who are you to tell us what you meant, you [raaaaacist|sexxxxxist|homophooooobic] knuckle-dragging Neanderthal? WE KNOW WHAT YOU REALLY MEANT!”
Thus does a sports writer who wrote of Jeremy Lin’s slump as “a chink in his armor” lose his job, because Mr. Lin is of Chinese extraction. Anyone else previously seen as supreme who shows weakness can have a chink in their armor, but not Lin or Yao. It doesn’t matter whether the writer even knew that word had the meaning ascribed to his writing. The privileged interpretive community hath declared him guilty of DoublePlusUngoodThink.
.
What bothers me here is how Nop is using consciously ambiguous language. Not ESR, but some other men surely flirt with women at conferences as not all men are married, and it is perfectly normal. Now: making a pass, according to the Urban Dictionary:
“Someone getting at another, starting a conversation and flirting in order to get it in later
-“hey, there was this cute girl talking to me earlier but she left”
-“yea she was trying to make a pass”
-“dammit! My game sucks” ”
The truly alarming part is the conscious effort to blur the boundary between flirting / attempting a pick-up vs. harassing. Meaning basically the only safe way for a man to behave with women is to show no sexual interest.
Okay, so what would be the SJW code of conduct? Only women are allowed to initiate flirting? Only non-balding handsome men are allowed to initiate flirting? Or skip it at the conference and wait for the party after? (Actually perhaps this latest rule would make sense.)
Or there is no such thing, it is just consciously formulated a weapon, not an actually functional new etiquette?
And, pray tell, what was the point of the whole Sexual Revolution if this is the result, that flirting and going for _consensual_ conquests (again not ESR but others surely do, there are lots of single guys out there) is now somehow bad? Let’s just go back to arranged marriage then or some other old stuff. Men – most men – have nothing to win from a world that allows sexual libertinism for women yet polices the attempts of men. In fact, for most men, the arranged marriage world was far easier.
The point I am trying to tell that all this basically reduces to expecting men to accept something against their own interests, just out of some moralistic stuff. Sexual freedom for women and sexual freedom for men is precisely the worst possible outcome for most men. Freedom for both genders at least liberates the cads, no freedom for either gender makes being a dad easy, but this arrangement helps almost no man.
Nop, what are you selling to men, exactly? What is in it for us? I mean actual interests, not moralistic stuff.
“and sexual freedom for men” dammit I meant “and sexual unfreedom for men”
> Remember the non-falsifiability requirement
, he says in the same breath as making excuses for why his claim isn’t falsifiable without the cooperation of someone whom he makes excuses for not doing so. I think that a claim for which there is no evidence either way, and is supported only by a mere assertion about which belief we should default to, should not be treated with any more respect than a truly unfalsifiable claim.
> Flirting is absolutely part of the culture at Penguicon. So is turning people down. Neither is considered any big deal.
Doesn’t this make it an unwelcoming environment to people to whom it is a big deal, therefore having a tendency to exclude those people?
I don’t necessarily agree (though I think it’s a more complex issue than a lot of people on both sides want to make it), but I certainly understand people’s dislike of the idea of such a thing being woven into the culture of something that isn’t about that (and therefore for which there doesn’t exist a good substitute for people who are uncomfortable in such an environment). Flirting being okay at a singles bar is one thing. Flirting being okay at conventions means that people not comfortable with flirting can’t go to conventions.
>. I think that a claim for which there is no evidence either way, and is supported only by a mere assertion about which belief we should default to, should not be treated with any more respect than a truly unfalsifiable claim.
I consider my source’s report to be very strong evidence. I can’t tell you why without putting him at risk, but that doesn’t change my evaluation. I can much more easily live with your disbelief than with his career being destroyed.
>Flirting being okay at conventions means that people not comfortable with flirting can’t go to conventions.
I dunno. I think it’s entirely possible to go to a con and barely notice that level of it, or select venues so you’re not uncomfortable. Nobody’s very likely to flirt with you in a program room (well, not unless it’s a panel on a sex-related topic or flirting); the con suite or a room party is a different matter.
Nop: “I think you posted this ridiculous conspiracy theory because you hit on the wrong person & they threatened”
When, exactly, did “hitting on” someone become a crime? “Hitting on” (which, of course, comes in a really wide spectrum of degrees of subtlety) is how ALL sexual relationships are initiated. “Hitting on” is not the same thing as harassment.
>When, exactly, did “hitting on” someone become a crime? “Hitting on” (which, of course, comes in a really wide spectrum of degrees of subtlety) is how ALL sexual relationships are initiated. “Hitting on” is not the same thing as harassment.
To be fair, Nop’s original formulation was “made a pass at”, which is socially a lot more serious and more likely to give offense even if it doesn’t rise to the level of criminality. I don’t feel any need to pick nits in his claims at that microlevel, so you shouldn’t bother either. Whether it’s “pass”, “hitting”, or “creeping”, the substance of the accusation is the same – that I’m inventing a conspiracy theory to shield my own behavior.
Meanwhile, offstage, the women I’m actually close to are probably having trouble maintaining their indignation because they’re laughing at the poor schmuck so hard. “He don’t know him vewy well, do he?”
Yeah, my favorite response to SJWs claiming “women don’t lie about rape” is “So when do we slap the cuffs on Bill Clinton for Juanita Broderick?”
Much foot-stompy ensues.
At which point the “believe the survivor” question-begging kicks in. Tip: Most people like Eric have been advocating this position for centuries if not millennia.
Absurd. She was wearing that blue dress.
So, you have a rumor from an anonymous source, and 0 facts|confirmation. How very scientific of you, Eric. Yes, you have guessed our ruse! As a woman who has worked in tech for over 2 decades, I look forward to going to conferences not to talk to colleagues about the latest ways to detect honeypots, but to be one! It’s the only way to advance my career with my measly girl brain. BWAHAHAHA.
(Sigh)
>It’s the only way to advance my career with my measly girl brain.
My senior apprentice, the person I’m teaching systems architecture, happens to be female. Her girl brain is quite sufficient. If yours is not, it’s not my problem.
Sad Puppies as a male supremacist movement? The one being run by Sarah Hoyt, Kate Paulk, and Amanda Green this year?
What color is the sky on your planet?!?!?
Please don’t; it just adds another cherry to the sundae of his self-beclownment.
esr on 2015-11-06 at 06:06:23 said:
“I think it’s actually weirder than that .. The weak case had become true in the reality in their heads, by a process of politically-driven self-deception.”
It’s even weirder than the weirder.
Feminists had a civil war in the 90s between equity feminists, ie normal women, and gender feminists, ie radfem male hating cuntists. At the time the leadership of NOW and other mainline feminist organizations uniformly consisted of unmarried childess lesbians who held open contempt for the concerns of mothers and wives; better to focus on antagonising males and the traditional family instead. In opposition, the equity feminists broke off to form separate organizations and..
.. went nowhere and lost the intra feminist civil war.
Victorious, gender feminism became third wave feminism, transforming itself into the industrial scale manipulation of women for the purpose of melding them into unwitting human shields for the anti-male, anti-family lesbianist agenda.
A modern feminist that does not expressly identify as an equity feminist is either a covert lesbianist pushing anti-male hatred or a human shield useful idiot, ie, one engaged in the “politically-driven self-deception” you identify. There are two groups and the lesbianist core is the one feeding the deception.
The deception being that third wave feminism is about women, whereas the truth is that it’s about lesbian penis-envy driven pyschosexual frustration. This core source of anti-male rage can’t express itself directly and all manner of fantastic rape this rape that pretexts have to be shovelled in to keep the truth hidden and the ideological shamble going.
TheDividualist on 2015-11-06 at 06:55:30 said:
Worth noting that PZ Myers who is himself something sort of a leftie/feminist/SJWish man, wrote some time ago on the Pharyngula blog that he no longer sees it safe to be alone with a female student or coworker. Can’t find a link, maybe when I will have more time I will dig it up.
1) PZ Myers is the walking embodiment of all SJW corruption
2) PZ Myers has himself been subject to at least one serious charge of sexual abuse
He is possibly the vilest, most morally destitute individual I have ever encountered. And a prime mover of ‘social justice’ online and in STEM, skepticism, atheism. He also made a Herculean effort to dox me and destroy my family and work relationships, including dick thwapping threats to get me placed on “no fly lists” with Interpol and FBI. Search his site for my nick. I had dozens of concurrent hate posts happening a few years ago. Because I laughed and called him a charlatan/snake oiler.
For PZ Myers sex abuse history, search http://slymepit.com/
Repugnant piece of human detritus on every level – and fully representative of SJWs in general.
> My senior apprentice, the person I’m teaching systems architecture, happens to be female. Her girl brain is quite sufficient. If yours is not, it’s not my problem.
Have you tried turning your sarcasm detector off and on again?
@Random832:
>> Flirting is absolutely part of the culture at Penguicon. So is turning people down. neither is considered any big deal.
“Doesn’t this make it an unwelcoming environment to people to whom it is a big deal, therefore having a tendency to exclude those people?”
Good question. What I’m wondering is whether women are made aware in advance that by attending Penguincon, they implicitly agree to being hit on, & lose their right to complain when someone gropes them. Prior to today, I’d certainly never heard of Penguincon having a policy that could be interpreted this way.
>Good question. What I’m wondering is whether women are made aware in advance that by attending Penguincon, they implicitly agree to being hit on, & lose their right to complain when someone gropes them.
The stupid, it burns.
Who said anything about groping being acceptable? For all that many of them are a bit socially impaired, fans generally know better than that. I’ve been in fandom for over 30 years and only know of a handful of such incidents.
And who said women (or men) that matter, implicitly agree to be hit on by showing up? I have to quote Charles Babbage here: “I am unable to apprehend the confusion of ideas that could give rise to such a question.”
Oh look, it turns out that Penguicon /does/ have anti-harassment rules:
http://2015.penguicon.org/code-of-conduct/
[Partial:]
Code of Conduct
Harassment
Penguicon is committed to fostering an environment of comfort and safety for everyone, regardless of gender, sexuality, relationship status, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, national origin, or religion. We will not tolerate any form of harassment of convention participants. Con participants found to be engaging in harassment may be expelled from the con without refund and/or banned from future attendance.
What is harassment?
Harassment includes:
making offensive verbal comments, facilitating an unwelcoming environment, or preventing any attendee from entering or participating in con events based on gender, sexuality, relationship status, impairment, physical appearance, body size, race, national origin, or religion
showing sexual images or conducting discussion about sexual topics in public spaces when the images or discussions do not allow attendees the opportunity to leave beforehand or are not presented in a respectful manner
intimidation, stalking, or following
photographing or recording someone without their consent
sustained disruption of talks or other events
* uninvited physical contact
* uninvited sexual attention
—
So Eric, perhaps you should explain to them how they’re misinterpreting the rules you say they have?
A couple of points:
1. It seems to me that the ribbons explicitly stating you intentions is a great solution to the problem. (The primary problem here being that women are under immense social pressure to be the Virgin Mary, and so there is a considerable pressure against them admitting they are open to flirting, irrespective of their level of horny.) But for honest people I think it is awesome. And who the hell wants to flirt with dishonest, non self aware people anyway?
2. Imagine a place you like to frequent — a local store, club, theater, a park, a web site or whatever. Imagine a gang of unpleasant thugs started hanging out there and threatening people who would patronize the place. What do you do? Do you simply give up on the enjoyable activity or do you stand up to the thugs?
@ Jay Maynard, Winter
I don’t think Lewinsky is the best example of this type of hypocrisy. Nearly twenty years ago, Juanita Broderick went on national television and described in detail how Bill Clinton had rape her violently. A few lone voices in the feminist movement spoke up for her, but the overwhelming response from both the national media and Feminist hierarchy was to give Bill a pass.
The point of this example is that the women who have been memetically seduced into Third Wave feminism are true believers and do harm while on autopilot. Trying to reason with them will be about as effective as trying to talk a suicide bomber out of pushing the button.
@Nop: “Good question. What I’m wondering is whether women are made aware in advance that by attending Penguincon, they implicitly agree to being hit on, & lose their right to complain when someone gropes them. Prior to today, I’d certainly never heard of Penguincon having a policy that could be interpreted this way.”
No one has advocated for anyone “losing their right to complain when someone gropes them.” The only person complaining about being touched inappropriately at Penguicon in this thread appears to be esr himself (and calling that groping is perhaps a stretch).
As for being “hit on”, that’s a very ambiguous term, as is “making a pass at” as others have used. People flirt and strike up conversations with each other and that shouldn’t be considered offensive. People sometimes misread signals, but so long as a clear “I’m not interested” is sufficient, no one is harmed. Attempting to confuse the issue by talking about “groping” and “harassment” as if they are the same thing as “attempting to strike up a conversation with someone you are attracted to for purposes of potential sexual overtures if your approach is well received” is foul, despicable, and indicative of a desire to condemn heterosexuality itself.
I don’t have the comment right in front of me, but the person who was talking about manners and the difference between dealing with one person being rude or misreading signals and OMG THE PATRIARCHY IS OPPRESSING US BY ASKING US OUT was definitely on to something.
To all the people continuing pushing this issue and accusing esr of things: you have just proven that the warning provided to esr was entirely accurate. You are attempting to do, in this comments section, exactly what he was warned would be done. Your plan to collect a scalp by having someone in close physical proximity make an allegation was blown, but hey, if you just make the accusation and generate enough smoke, surely people will assume there’s a fire…
Basically, uh, yes.
Among orangutans there are two types of males: flanged and unflanged. Flanged males are the dominant males; they have the two big flaps on the sides of their face. They are the orangutan equivalent of Terry Crews in the Old Spice commercials. They don’t have to do anything to attract female attention; they let out a loud booming mating call and the females come to them. Unflanged males have no such luck; they either have to strike out on their own and form a new troop, at which time their flanges will grow (flanges are secondary sex characteristics which are suppressed in subdominant males since if a flanged male encounters another flanged male he will attack); or they can sneak up on an unsuspecting female and force her into coitus.
Now, back to humans: if a woman observes a subdominant, low-SMV male showing obvious sexual interest, her prehistoric ape brain kicks in and raises the “rape imminent” alarm signal. You can be subdominant or you can be horny, but you can’t be both. Men who are both are called “creeps”.
The feminist angle comes into play when you realize that given the strength advantage men have over women, women live much more fear-filled lives than do men because they are surrounded by people who could do them grievous harm. That makes women inherently unequal to men, and in order for feminist goals of equality to be met, HAS to change. So creeps (again any horny, subdominant male) are dealt with much more harshly in the past because women have the right to not live in fear of them and thus not encounter them.
The ONLY solution is to either stop being subdominant (work out, work on your grooming, develop a swagger) or stop being horny (“stick to video games” as I’ve heard it put). If you are not top-ranked in terms of your SMV, any interaction with women that suggests sexual interest will put you at risk. And if you are approached by women, either your SMV is high or you are being targeted for financial or other exploitation.
>Now, back to humans: if a woman observes a subdominant, low-SMV male showing obvious sexual interest, her prehistoric ape brain kicks in and raises the “rape imminent” alarm signal. You can be subdominant or you can be horny, but you can’t be both. Men who are both are called “creeps”.
Yup. Which is one reason accusing me of being a creeper is funny. There are a lot of negative adjectives that might be chosen to describe me, but “subdominant”? Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
On IRC:
(nick suppressed) thank you for what you are doing :)
“And who said women (or men) that matter, implicitly agree to be hit on by showing up?” – well, allowing for “flirting” and “hitting on” as synonyms (or near enough as to make no difference),
Jay Maynard did. Which was what prompted my response, which was what prompted Nop’s response.
esr, it isn’t stupidity, or confusion; it’s the pathological dishonesty of the SJW.
“SJWs Always Lie”.
>“SJWs Always Lie”.
I think that’s true – but the first and largest lies they tell are to themselves, after which they form a pathological, unsane sort of “truth” in their heads. Vox Day’s tagline is misleading because it suggests conscious, tactical lying and I actually don’t think that dominates their behavior. The nature of their lies is deeper and weirder than that.
Don’t worry, there are a decent lot of us that aren’t like this — it’s a shame that a group would decide to hurt all women in tech by pulling this sort of garbage. I’m sorry you have to go through this.
>Don’t worry, there are a decent lot of us that aren’t like this — it’s a shame that a group would decide to hurt all women in tech by pulling this sort of garbage. I’m sorry you have to go through this.
I think it’s a shame, too. And my upset is nothing compared to how my female-geek friends feel about it.
Thanks for the support, and don’t feel too concerned. I’m about as well positioned and equipped to handle this kind of crapfest as anyone reasonably could be.
Random832: What Jay Maynard actually said was that the convention has a system in place, which is designed so that women (and men) can -explicitly- and -individually- flag what sort of advances they are comfortable with.
This is the exact and perfect opposite of the nonsense you are suggesting – that they implicitly agree to some sort of everything goes policy regardless of what they would prefer themselves.
>Random832: What Jay Maynard actually said was that the convention has a system in place, which is designed so that women (and men) can -explicitly- and -individually- flag what sort of advances they are comfortable with.
Yes, and it’s pretty fine-grained. You can specify, for example, cuddles but not sex. (Usually. The ribbons vary at different cons, the system is evolving, and there’s limited space on the ribbon.)
There are also letters for various common kinks.
There’s an SNL sketch of a “Sexual Harassment Training Video” with Tom Brady, based off the observation that normal, even innocuous behavior by unattractive men is labeled creepy/harassment, while attractive men doing the same thing through actually being rude/callous/etc. is just fine.
The rules stated at the end for avoiding sexual harassment:
1) Be handsome
2) Be attractive
3) Don’t be unattractive
To my knowledge, no. Most likely because “implicitly agreeing to be it on”, or “losing one’s right to complain when groped”, isn’t the policy of the convention, nor was anything approximating that stated. Only a fool whom is actively looking for things to be troubled and offended by would interpret a culture of friendly flirting, or simple and effective tools to keep said flirting from going too far as the absurdity quoted above.
@ESR
>I think that’s true – but the first and largest lies they tell are to themselves, after which they form a pathological, unsane sort of “truth” in their heads.
Leaving aside that it’s a rhetorical statement and not absolutely true in every single utterance, yes. They believe something false, and there are none so blind as those who will not see. The worst, WILL deliberately lie because something may be “fake but true”.
But it remains that the biggest lies are the ones they tell themselves about the nature of the world and people around them. Their very existence becomes a lie, filtered through a perspective that is false to reality.
This quote is too good not to share here, because it shows that some SJW strategies are not new. The more things change….
“Little does the public reck how much of the news it devours every day is manufactured by entrepreneurs. Not infrequently, I have detected as much as a whole page of it in the eminent Sunpaper, a journal more suspicious than most: it is far worse in others. One reads that the representative of a national organization is before Congress demanding this or that radical change in the laws, the plain fact is that the national organization consists of its representative — that the rest of the members are simply dolts who have put up the money for his salary and expenses in order to bathe themselves in the glare of his publicity. One hears that a million children in Abyssinia are starving, that a fund of $5,000,000 is being raised to succor them, that Baltimore’s quota is $216.000, the plain fact is that an accomplished drive manager has got a new job. One hears that “the women of the United States” are up in arms about this or that; the plain fact is that eight fat women, meeting in a hotel parlor, have decided to kick up some dust.” —from “The Uplift as a Trade” by H.L. Mencken, Baltimore Evening Sun, March 2, 1915
Well, the issue is that ESR’s comment: “As Jay says. The purpose of these ribbons is to avoid the kind of breach of manners Honey committed when she tongue-kissed me without knowing my mono/poly status.” seems to imply that there is some level below that (but above “nothing”) that is considered acceptable as a default for people without ribbons. It didn’t become a breach of manners until tongue was involved?
@Random832: You might do well to avoid trying to generalize from a specific situation you are not familiar with to a rule covering an entire convention.
Where you went wrong was -seems to imply-. Your imagination -seems- to have filled in a lot of blank space. There is no need to read the bones here, or lay out your deck of tarot cards. Figure the facts out. Asking questions politely is a good start.
So, you have a rumor from an anonymous source, and 0 facts|confirmation. How very scientific of you, Eric
He doesn’t have 0 facts|confirmation, and the source is not anonymous to him.
And Eric was clear about that in the original post. Which means, for example, that if I were to say to Eric, “I’m skeptical about your claim, given that I don’t know your source; as a result, I’m probably going to be sensitive to claims against Torvalds, but will probably take them with less salt than you do; is that rational?”, I think he would probably say “yes”. He might remind me of the risks involved, but he knows he can’t operate except in terms of information we can both confirm, and he’s obviously aware of that.
Contrast with various citations of this blogpost I’m seeing in articles around the net. They’re nowhere near as scrupulous about repeating Eric’s scrupulousness here. Neither Breitbart nor the various articles opposing him (one even cites him as “addled”!).
I’d say Eric is being unusually scientific here. He’s also somewhat emotionally invested, but who isn’t?
(Eric, I hope you and others will hesitate to count Moira with the bad-faith arguers here. She’s an acquaintance, and I’d prefer not to jump to that conclusion without more information.)
>Which means, for example, that if I were to say to Eric, “I’m skeptical about your claim, given that I don’t know your source; as a result, I’m probably going to be sensitive to claims against Torvalds, but will probably take them with less salt than you do; is that rational?”, I think he would probably say “yes”
Duh. Of course I would.
>(Eric, I hope you and others will hesitate to count Moira with the bad-faith arguers here. She’s an acquaintance, and I’d prefer not to jump to that conclusion without more information.)
Concidentally I believe I may have met her, years ago, in live-action gaming circles. Didn’t know her well.
On this business of ribbons with letters on them: it reminds me of the “Open Source Boobs Project” which proposed a visual marker indicating the wearer wouldn’t mind a friendly breast grope. It was roundly cracked down upon by feminists — for good reason, in light of the ape-brain theory above: If to know what a MOTAS is or is not open to, you need some sort of visual indicator, then you lack the social wherewithal to be a dominant flanged male and are AUTOMATICALLY a creep; no woman should ever have to deal with you. Work on your social skills, sperg.
Jeff: “Work on your social skills, sperg.”
Tsk. Really now. A good SJW like you using a dismissive epithet to disparage someone with Asperger’s? (I can’t think of anything else “sperg” would expand to.) I thought that was precisely the kind of thing SJWs crusaded against.
And forcing people to guess about whether someone would be receptive to an advance is how we got ourselves into this situation. I thought SJWs were all about people not making advances without getting consent first? You know, “consent culture”, as implicitly opposed to “rape culture”?
Oh, I almost forgot, Jeff: Odjebi!
Congratulations, Eric; your deranged rant has hit the MSM & is being treated with the appropriate degree of seriousness:
http://nymag.com/following/2015/11/this-the-perfect-insane-anti-feminist-rumor.html
That No-one could be arrested on the accusation of a woman was written into Magna Carter.
Emotional appeal to remove liberties have a long history.
@TriggerFinger: ‘No one has advocated for anyone “losing their right to complain when someone gropes them.” ‘
You’d need to argue that one with ESR, as he’s the one who said that it’s socially unacceptable at Penguicon for a woman to complain about someone making a pass at her.
If you missed that comment, I suggest that you read the whole thread instead of skipping ahead.
@nop
And to think we were being told that man-hating feminism wasn’t the default/mainstream among the supposedly “reality-based” community.
Mainstream media outlets – the same ones who took Anita “I’ll actually show you I’m pissing on your boots but still insist it’s raining” Snarkeesian at face value and made a “gamer gate” episode of L&O:SJW?
The same ones that called Brad, Larry, Sarah, etc. and company from sad puppies a bunch of white male racists without bothering to check? And then declared that Brad was using his wife of 20 years as a shield? That had to retract a legally actionable article?
If anyone needed proof of alternate realities, you provide it. That or that hallucinogens in large quantities are bad for you. Do we need to get you back on SSRI’s?
@Nop
Just because you THINK someone said something, doesn’t mean that they did. Words don’t mean anything you want them to. You should stay in the padded room until reality stabilizes a bit.
Nop, I’d have been stunned if the leftist MSM didn’t treat the story as that writer did. It challenges too many of his most cherished beliefs.
>Nop, I’d have been stunned if the leftist MSM didn’t treat the story as that writer did. It challenges too many of his most cherished beliefs.
I tore a strip out of his hide when he emailed me afterwards, finishing with “Wondering why nobody trusts the mainstream media? Look in the mirror.”
What a benightedly ignorant, arrogant tool, sadly an all-too-typical member of the journalistic class these days. It wasn’t a conscious hit piece – I think he actually genuinely didn’t understand what a steaming pile of unexamined prejudices he had spewed forth.
@Nop: What esr actually said was that it was socially unacceptable for attendees to “out” each other, a convention which is quite different from “complaining about someone making a pass”. And I didn’t even have to scroll back to remember what he actually said compared to what you said he said.
@TriggerFinger > What esr actually said was that it was socially unacceptable for attendees to “out” each other, a convention which is quite different from “complaining about someone making a pass”.
If it’s so different, then why did he say it when the latter was what was already under discussion?
@Nop: No-one’s defining their terms very well here, but to most people there’s a pretty huge gap between “making a pass” and “groping”, and this is multiple times you’ve responded to people who said the former as if they had conceded the latter.
Maynard, the “sperg” comment was mild sarcasm. I’m not an SJW. I know, shocking to someone who sees a Red lurking in every bush. I do think the SJWs deserve more benefit of the doubt than do the Gators or manosphere in general. And I don’t write the rules on how people with low social skills get treated. They are iron laws of human interaction, but now cops and lawyers are involved because social ineptitude is, increasingly, criminal behavior. (Catcalling has been rebranded “street harassment”, and an unsuccessful move was afoot in the UK to get it declared a form of sexual assault.)
I don’t like all these developments, but again, I’m not writing the rules.
I think the idea is: if you lack the wherewithal to make such a guess, assume “no”. And tools to compensate for social difficulty like the ribbons must be vigorously opposed and banned — because that may give creeps hope that they might score.
>And tools to compensate for social difficulty like the ribbons must be vigorously opposed and banned — because that may give creeps hope that they might score.
The women of fandom do not agree with you.
“I tore a strip out of his hide when he emailed me afterwards”
Afterwards?!
That, right there, says all that needs saying about the piece. A true journalist, one who cares about getting the story right rather than pushing a particular viewpoint, would have gotten your comment before publishing, or at least made an honest attempt at it.
> Besides, let’s get real. Who are they going to find to run an entrapment who isn’t so bought in to anti-male ideologizing that she can’t help being obvious and strident about it?
Someone who can be bought or blackmailed, maybe? Someone with a personal non-ideological (or regarding some other ideological difference) grudge against the target?
You’ve jumped the shark. Absent is the usual clear-thinking that is the hallmark of your writing; it has been replaced with pointless fear-mongering. This is the kind of low-brow office-politicking I would expect to find … elsewhere.
On the general nature of this post: what statistical evidence do you have that your “advice” is worth anything? Can you even produce a single relevant event, let alone evidence that this is a tactic being replicated all over the world?
On the specific claim that the Ada Initiative targeted Linus Torvalds: You’ve already admitted that this claim is basically unfalsifiable since Linus will not confirm or deny anything. Do you even see the irony? (Your source claims Ada Initiative would target well-known individuals like Linus in order to generate outrage. This post’s main content, and it’s draw to the MSM, centers around your name-dropping of Linus. I’m sure he appreciates that, since you’re on such good terms with him.)
I you discovered that your source was day-dreaming, would you post a retraction? Can you even imagine your source being erroneous?
Good luck killing the Buddha …
***
Have to say though, I’m curious as to what kind of honey trap your source specifies. Are the instigators to fabricate incidences of sexual harassment, or are they to select targets who will, with high probability, attempt to ‘make a pass’ which they can then report to the outside world as harassment?
>You’ve already admitted that this claim is basically unfalsifiable since Linus will not confirm or deny anything.
Don’t be a bloody idiot. Linus could falsify the claim with three words. It would be politically easy and safe for him to do so. It would land him in various complications to confirm it. Since both things are the case, a Bayesian would treat his silence as weak confirmation. I’m amazed I even have to spell this out.
>I you discovered that your source was day-dreaming, would you post a retraction?
Of course. If you actually followed this blog, you’d know the answer to that already.
>Can you even imagine your source being erroneous?
Sure, but after the scalping of Tim Hunt, and Donglegate, and the smearing of Michael Shermer – not to mention what I know about my source’s position of observation that you don’t – it’s low odds. His accusation is consistent with the known tactics of these groups – more extreme, but a friend who has approached me privately after having observed the Ada Initiative from close up proposes plausibly that this is accounted for by Val Aurora being as crazy as a loon.
>Have to say though, I’m curious as to what kind of honey trap your source specifies. Are the instigators to fabricate incidences of sexual harassment, or are they to select targets who will, with high probability, attempt to ‘make a pass’ which they can then report to the outside world as harassment?
You know what I do. He hasn’t elaborated since. I could ask, but I’m reluctant because I don’t want to reveal any clues to his identity even accidentally and these things have a way of leaking through if the source says too much. I disguised his writing style and even the length of his IRC nick in the transcript – that’s how careful I’m being. I will post more information only if he volunteers it.
I will now speculate. If I were planning an op like this, I would hope that the target’s dick would lead him into temptation and make a pass, but settle for an unfalsifiable fabrication if I couldn’t get that.
Just you wait. Won’t be long before codes of conduct are implemented to address this sort of thing.
I’m speaking from the backlash I observed towards Open Source Boobs, which was a bit more rube-ish but, if properly implemented, should be harmless.
When such a person speaks, it’s not really them speaking. It’s a “virtual machine” running in their heads that’s nicely insulated from reality so it doesn’t have to deal with the icky truths that undermine their philosophy. The “hypervisor” has to deal with reality, of course, and does so often with ruthless pragmatism, but it presents a view of the outside world to the “VM” that keeps whatever idealized fairytale reality the VM-self clings to intact. Some examples:
* A natural-medicine nut who still takes their kids to the actual doctor when things go wrong.
* A “teach men not to rape” apologist for female helplessness. What’s in your purse, lady? Can of mace? Derringer, perhaps, if you’re from Austin?
* Dianne Feinstein. We KNOW she’s packing in her purse…
* Anyone who believes in “The Secret”.
>Just you wait. Won’t be long before codes of conduct are implemented to address this sort of thing.
You don’t get it at all. SF fandom codes of conduct would be way more likely to institutionalize these signaling ribbons than ban them. (Every fan reading this blog is nodding his or her head now. Likely several of them will comment to confirm.) Women aren’t passively accepting this device, they are enthusiastic adopters themselves. They want men to do this.
This doesn’t falsify the “creep = low-SMV male showing interest in a higher-SMV female” model, which I believe is correct. It just means that women in fandom estimate the SMV of male fans higher than you do. Which shouldn’t be any surprise; they keep showing up, and women are not in general prone to do repeats at social venues full of what they consider unfit males.
It is not “fear-mongering” to factually document the behaviors of this feminist cult. Shaming witchhunts are routine. There is Shanley Kane, there is the Adria Richards affair, there is the unethical and immoral Ada. There is the UVA/Rolling Stone hoax. Only REAL journalism saved that. There are endless declarations by people like Zerlina Maxwell and Jessica Valenti that due process is irrelevant. There is the Stanford affair. Only REAL journalism saved that guy. There is the mattress girl hoax. Only REAL journalism saved that guy. I can no longer keep track of the doxxings and swattings in GamerGate, or how many “journalists” were colluding to advance feminist dogma. Anti-internet harassment advocate Randi Harper actually harassed a male feminist out of his own career and publicly threatened an innocent collection agency employee for doing their job. False accusations of racism, transphobia and misogyny are like rain. How many men have lost their jobs for public statements much less bigoted than feminists get away with every day? Could any white man working at Publisher’s Weekly get away with saying most black women should come with a trigger warning for arrogance as did a goofball “genderqueer” woman about “most white men”? I could list hundreds more.
There is no “fear-mongering” going on here, there is only a recording device showing a factual trend among these absurd and dismal people.
> Linus could falsify the claim with three words. It would be politically easy and safe for him to do so.
Why would he? Let’s suppose that you’re Linus Torvalds, and you have no idea what this is about. What possible reason do I have to dignify it with a response?
triggerfinger: “And I didn’t even have to scroll back to remember what he actually said compared to what you said he said.”
Lying about what someone said when the original words are still there on the same freakin’ screen is a sign of just how divorced from reality people like nop are, and I’ve noticed that they’ve started doing it a lot.
That might be an effective (though reprehensible) tactic when the original statements aren’t immediately available, but when they are? It’s total crazytown.
Er, I wrote that as “Suppose that I’m” and then switched it to “Suppose that you’re” and missed one. Obviously, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here, is actually Linus Torvalds.
“Lying about what someone said when the original words are still there on the same freakin’ screen”
As I pointed out, what someone replied to is just as important as what they said. ESR read the words “Fact is that you made a pass at my close friend’s wife at a FOSS event.” and chose to interpret that as, in the hypothetical situation that Nop is being truthful, someone “outing” him.
I also have to wonder why we’re even assuming he’s heard of the claim at this point. Are we trusting the journalistic integrity of the media outlets that are reporting this? Have you (ESR) asked him yourself?
@Dan
thakyuo four bringing up “why sjws always lye”. i think it made a compeling case for why jon scalsi is not a very popular author and why vox dai is much more populer. i think it is becos sjws lye which make jon scalsi look moar populer. i especially enjoyed chaptar five which was very well written.
Unless someone is in possession of some information that shows tech conventions suffer an unusually high number of rapes, what’s the point of acting as if men generally sanction harassment and rape at such affairs, or anywhere? We all know society has victims of crimes – is the entire country to be ruled by the worst possible reactions to crime by its victims, or men judged by the worst of men? Don’t we have law and a court system? Why act as if men are simply bad? I just don’t get this – what’s the point? Men who don’t rape won’t – men who do aren’t liable to be affected by lectures or badges. That’s why we have laws that distinguish between the two, rather than lumping them together in an act of bigotry stripped of context.
The truth is there are a lot of anonymous crazy people on the internet. Then there are others who aren’t anonymous at all. Morons printed up cards to hand out to people at the 2014 PyCon to whomever they deemed were violating their personal space or whatever the fuck people with skins as thin as a molecule do to enhance their offense at the world. These anti-harassment cards are nothing new at tech cons – men have been known to purposefully go out of their way to collect them just to show their contempt for the whole idea. I can already see a future where everyone in America is a jiggling and glittering bunch of idiots handing each other cards, leaving them on cars, putting them in a cashier’s pocket, pasting them to the neighbor’s door and shoving them up their own backsides.
Get this:
“Creeper Move! If you have received this card, you have done something wildly inappropriate or otherwise harassed the person who handed this to you. You should be happy you got a card and not a punch in the face. Check yourself – you might not be this lucky twice!”
The person who created these cards says they are “meant to be a non-confrontational way of engaging with harassment.” It seems to me that such depraved announcements not only easily meet a definition of harassment but could arguably be a cause for a citizen’s arrest.
I’m not sure why an implied threat of physical assault doesn’t fall under the purview of harassment or abuse which Selena Deckelmann says can consist of being ignored, or Valerie Aurora’s timeline which says can be a flirtatious public interview. Shouldn’t these FYI you’re-lucky-I-didn’t-rape-you cards be on Aurora’s “timeline of sexist incidents in geek communities?” Aren’t such cards themselves harassment? Fucking hypocrites who use their politicized dislike of men and hide it behind a screen of “justice” is the answer, since there is no fair and binding principle being invoked which applies to both sides.
While there is little doubt at least some sexual harassment occurs at tech or SF conventions, to simply spread it all around as commonplace without context and further act as if the same thing wouldn’t occur at a female dominated romance writer’s convention is absurd, especially considering the insanely low threshold these thought police use to define harassment, which could be almost anything. The law in fact doesn’t recognize in advance that women are more cultured in such matters or whites liable to racism. That’s not the way it should work here either. When it does, one is already hopelessly biased.
The law wouldn’t ask a female witness who attended tech conventions to give details about a specific harassment she didn’t actually see simply because she “knows” it occurs and is an innately cultured and moral female. But that’s exactly what’s occurring here, and the hunters are out and about. Adria Richards’s supporters consider a shining example of such harassment to be a couple of guys making dongle jokes among themselves. If that’s all Richards and her supporters have to worry about, I declare sexual harassment at tech conferences to be abolished and cured. Hysterical overreaction is a phrase that comes to mind, and they are stabbing their own cause in the foot if they expect me to start expressing horror over dongles.
The real problem with the signaling ribbons solution is that it doesn’t allow for the status quo of plausible deniability. There are all sorts of reasons why folks, especially female folks, would rather “opt-in” to flirting, on a case-by-case basis. And yes, “low SMV” can definitely be a factor – but what people often miss in these discussions is that “SMV” is quite malleable and situation-dependent.
(In fact, if I wanted to be provocative, I would even say that since projecting tolerably-high SMV is so easy and so effective at smoothing over all sorts of social interactions, that it really is rude and disrespectful not to do it! Of course the story is more complex than that, but still.)
But of course, much of this becomes quite irrelevant when a vicious political movement wants to collect your scalp. You’d be foolish to accept flirting from _anyone_ in such circumstances. Now, to be honest, it has been crystal-clear as far back as Donglegate that something like this was going on. But this is also why the idea that open source leaders are now making things up _for their own selfish benefit_ is so unintentionally hilarious.
>The real problem with the signaling ribbons solution is that it doesn’t allow for the status quo of plausible deniability.
Sure it does. There’s no rule saying you have to wear one.
There is naught to be done until the SJW movement reaches its peak and collapses under the weight of its internal contradictions.
hoodaticus, I think the collapse has actually started nowadays, at least as far as the general public is concerned. And it will be really interesting to watch. Like a slow-motion train wreck.
>And it will be really interesting to watch. Like a slow-motion train wreck.
The OP is me pointing at one place it’s gone off the rails.
@guest: You’ve hit on exactly what the problem is with the ribbons — women don’t make the decision about whether sexual advances are favored or disfavored until they can see and evaluate who is making those advances. You don’t need a ribbon; you need augmented reality and a simple, public “will you slap me if I ask you out?” API that doesn’t notify the person running the API that someone queried it. (Not notifying avoids potential embarrassment for both parties and removes contextual information that might confuse results — ie, was it the cute guy I am talking to who queried, or the nerd in the corner?)
Now, we used to have such an API: the wedding ring. If you wore one, you weren’t supposed to be approached or do the approaching. If you weren’t married but didn’t want to be approached, you could wear one anyway and remove it in a specific context if necessary. (Or if you were married, and wanted to approach someone, too). You could look for a ring discreetly, and that put one limit on such things. Obviously no one would approach children, so there’s a lower limit, and coming of age ceremonies or promenades or coming-out parties or similar customs would announce availability. Or something as simple as whether a woman’s hair is worn short or long, loose or restrained. Not to mention the now-abandoned custom of asking the head of a household for permission to court his daughter. Such things have been rejected by feminists as pointless misogynistic patriarchal controls on femininity, but they had a real practical purpose in helping people navigate the rather daunting social elements of courtship.
Now? Well, now we have Tinder. God help us.
TriggerFinger, I’m not sure. I think the “new rules” of courtship do make a lot of sense, even if they are rather more complicated than the older ones. So, in a sense, I have to agree with these feminists: we have traded away some societal control and the attendant simplicity, but there have been gains in that individuals can more easily negotiate their stance. One of the “new rules” is that it doesn’t really make sense to ask someone out until you’ve gotten to know them more discreetly and some minimal social comfort has been established. In general terms (absent willful sabotage, of course) this gives you enough info to make a good prediction.
@guest: The problem is, that “new rule” doesn’t apply to the high-SMV folks who can do almost anything without consequences, and it leaves the average and low SMV folks out in the cold, because “Would you like to get a cup of coffee sometime so we can get to know each other?” has become a minefield: if you are acceptable, you could be in bed together that night, and if not, you might not have a job the next morning. The cost of prediction failure has been shifted entirely to the male, and entirely front-loaded, and that means that the opportunity to establish that minimal social comfort is available only to the high-smv (who face little risk) or the extremely risk-tolerant.
I think it’s common decency to have and adhere to simple, reasonable social customs concerning who is or is not open to being approached, and starting with a simple and polite “I’m not interested, thanks” rather than going straight to the rape whistle.
@ PapayaSF: I think you are missing the essential conflict between the “cast the assholes out” viewpoint and the SJW/cultural Marxism/intersectional/third-wave feminist view. The latter focuses on “patriarchy” and “cishetnormativity” and “the legacy of colonialism and slavery” and “rape culture” and “structural oppression” and so on. To an SJW, individual assholes merely express the social forces that are the real ideological enemy.
Not at all. The problem is twofold. One side of the problem goes something like this: The failure mode of “anti-asshole” is “he’s a worse asshole.” The failure mode of anti-crazy is “She’s even crazier.” This is the failure mode Eric is falling into. He’s got this idea of SJWs as an extension of communism and a tendency to say stuff like, “…this report is consistent with reports of SJW dezinformatsiya tactics from elsewhere and I think it would be safest to assume that they are being replicated by other women-in-tech groups.” or “(Don’t like that, ladies? Tough. You were just fine with collective guilt when the shoe was on the other foot. Enjoy your turn!)”
In the context of this discussion I don’t need to explain how that could be taken out of context, right?
The other issue says, “Is your expressed ideology sufficiently sophisticated to handle a serious challenge?” Eric’s ideology is damnably simplistic, and a smart Women’s Studies graduate in the first year of her Master’s would crush him in anything which remotely resembled a fairly administered debate. Her “structural oppression” and “rape cultures” trump his second-hand John Bircher rhetoric easily. Part of this is the fact that “second wave” feminism had a pretty intelligent map of reality, which means that “third wave” feminism, despite its craziness, inherits lots of characteristics from a fundamentally sane world view… and the other part is that Eric isn’t really trying hard to come up with ways to differentiate SJWs from women with real problems, or sort out his allies from his enemies, or deal with the issue by doing something other than throwing maledictions at a group which disbanded six months ago…He’s just coasting along in his groove, writing code and making the odd nutty political post, which is sad because if he was more attuned to – frustrated! – more attuned to all kinds of stuff – he might have something interesting to say or contribute to solving the problem.
I just got a call to go help someone with their car, so I’ll hopefully respond to more people tomorrow, but meanwhile I think you see where I’m going with this – maybe a more complex view of a complex issue would give better results – that all.
>Eric’s ideology is damnably simplistic, and a smart Women’s Studies graduate in the first year of her Master’s would crush him in anything which remotely resembled a fairly administered debate.
ROFL. “Women’s studies” is one of the degrees that effectively selects for stupidity, because the really bright people are off doing something with more substance, like STEM or law or medicine. Besides, I’ve read their writing – it is not the product of first-rate minds. I don’t believe there’s a “Women’s studies” major on the planet who could “crush” me.
And if you really think I sound like a Bircher, you got up on the dumb side of the bed this morning.
@Troutwaxer: “Eric’s ideology is damnably simplistic, and a smart Women’s Studies graduate in the first year of her Master’s would crush him in anything which remotely resembled a fairly administered debate.”
Yeah, and my mom would totally beat up your dad. Totally. With one breast tied behind her back or removed entirely.
@Troutwaxer: “Her “structural oppression” and “rape cultures” trump his second-hand John Bircher rhetoric easily. Part of this is the fact that “second wave” feminism had a pretty intelligent map of reality, which means that “third wave” feminism, despite its craziness, inherits lots of characteristics from a fundamentally sane world view…”
…. and your idea of an intelligent map of reality consists of structural oppression and rape culture?
@Troutwaxer: “Second-hand John Bircher rhetoric”? Really, that’s how you’d characterize ESR’s position? I don’t think that speaks well of your powers of discernment.
Note second-hand. As opposed to first-hand John Bircher rhetoric, which I can’t quite decide whether is reserved for John Bircher himself, or perhaps his personal disciples.
> because “Would you like to get a cup of coffee sometime so we can get to know each other?” has become a minefield
Only as a result of politically-motivated sabotage. The only way to win _that_ game is not to play. (I’m assuming here that you didn’t just invite her to get that “cup of coffee” in your own hotel room, late at night, and that this wasn’t the _very first thing_ you said to her. That’s something quite different, of course.)
Troutwaxer, SJW _is_ an extension of communism – most specifically, an extension of its cultural-revolutionist branch of Mao Zedong and Pol Pot fame. Their rhethoric (“STEM culture is a bourgeois privilege!”) is straight out of the playbook of Mao and the Mao-influenced Frankfurt School.
@guest: I wasn’t deliberately invoking Elevatorgate or any personal anecdote, just looking for a generalized opening for the process of establishing that minimal social comfort.
For the record, as far as I can tell, ElevatorGate had both sides acting stupidly in different ways.
#TakeBackTheTech by a real egalitarian:
https://youtu.be/wnQYNEC1ziM
A must watch:
https://youtu.be/kp-xDmeF0Fg?t=1m36s
This is a true Feminist:
https://youtu.be/dj8883DryKA
Bravo!
https://youtu.be/H4s4pZNMq3Q
Stop the presses, @Jeff Read is becoming red pill! :-) No seriously Jeff, looks like you have accepted some RP stuff on the factual level, just on the values level not. I mean on the factual level you should know already that women hold all the power in the sexual marketplace -as they don’t need to become anything special to get laid – and thus it is not fair to steer rules in their favor. And on the values level sexual freedom for one gender and unfreedom for another isn’t a good deal.
But on the factual level it seems you are getting it, and there is a lot of truth in this, below a certain attractiveness level rejection is almost assured and if even scares women, it makes sense to have etiquette against it. Even my 100% alpha absolutely old-fashioned non-feminist dad told me if you don’t get some indicator of interest, like a look or smile, don’t bother, save your face and avoid a humiliating rejection. These are good rules. The problems are the following:
– Somehow this etiquette stuff – you do something mildly wrong, people frown, you back off – is not working these days. Part of the story is diversity – the more diverse you are, the the less you can rely on contextual knowledge and thus you have to make rules clear is a stupid low context literal way. This is a big problem – diversity, mostly through migration, is killing these “good old unwritten rules everybody felt” thing. Manners and etiquette. I wonder how many women don’t dare to tell it because not wanting to look racist, but her major problem is with the Indian and similar programmers imported to the US/UK? I mean, it would not actually be racist to say guys who came from a culture where arranged marriage still exists will, er, have some misunderstandings but I think they don’t dare to say that these days.
– But an even bigger problem is that this isn’t frowns. The SJW stuff is destroying careers and can get men into prison. Seriously it looks more like a war than ball room etiquette rules.. Of course, etiquette can be worked out with non-SJW women. But on the SJW level the aggressivity of it all is amazing. The weirdest part is, by the way, that they always go for the soft guy, the liberal guy who is mostly with them, just made a quip or two. Not the 100% dedicated hardcore right-wing antifeminist. So at some level this swarming looks like the internal purge of the not 100% dedicated.
– Other details: there is a lot of gray zone between subdominant and dominant men. Also some subdominant men have charming IQ and humor and sometimes that works, but they cannot wait for IOIs, they must strike up conversations.
“Her “structural oppression” and “rape cultures” trump his second-hand John Bircher rhetoric easily.”
Only to an audience of gender-studies majors. Those of us in the real world reject her premise in the first place.
@TheDividualist: Absolutely. Robert Putnam’s work shows how “diversity” (the modern secular religion) actually decreases social trust.
For the latest Onion-level example, check out the story of Air Force Tech. Sgt. Aaron D. Allmon II. (No link, to avoid spam filter.) For three kisses, six touches, and inappropriate comments, he’s being courtmartialed and faces up to 130 years in prison. Never mind his accomplishments and PTSD from Iraq and Afghanistan, today’s military has new priorities! He should have done something minor, like desert in the face of the enemy, if he wanted mercy from the Obama administration.
I think the tide may well be turning on the SJWs. The defeat of the wonderfully-named HERO initiative in Houston was a shock, and the usual crowd is frothing. Even a big city with a lesbian mayor drew the line at the invention of the “civil right” of men to declare themselves women walk into the women’s bathrooms and dressing rooms and showers. Perhaps the idea that everyone must accommodate the desires of ever-tinier sexual minorities has hit its limit.
Troutwaxer- ‘a smart Women’s Studies graduate in the first year of her Masters would crush [eric} easily’
I think ‘smart’ is the crux. Say I’m too dumb and lazy and ignorant for college. High-functioning mildly retarded, IQ 80-95. Worked the system well enough, or the pay-rents, or both, to get into a ‘university’, but not going to actually crack the books for eighty-hour weeks of study. And it’s not like I grew up in a house full of books or really studied anything but porn on the web. What choice do I have in college? I NEED easy A’s. If I’m female, women’s studies. Black, african american studies. Gay, okay. Straight White Male? I’d better be a True Believer in the Pop Sosh Democratic Party Line. All easy A courses are courses in loyalty to the Democratic Party. And I take Computer Science because I’m not too dumb to type, but it ain’t like I’m Linus Torvald. They are taking a mean advantage of my double digit IQ with their ‘show me the code’ and their triple digit IQs. They are elitists. I am oppressed. I shall revolt by any means necessary!
Troutwaxer? Have you ever met a ‘smart Women’s Studies graduate’? Like, her knack for tensor calculus wasn’t getting enough challenge in high-energy physics so she majored in Women’s Studies smart? Like, coded like Eric smart?
>All easy A courses are courses in loyalty to the Democratic Party.
This is not true; some of them are plain Communist/Socialist indoctrination. There is still actually a difference, though not one that usually matters much in practice.
The deeper into women’s studies one goes the crazier one gets, so Troutwaxer’s comment makes little sense. When you get to the part where proper pronouns like Zir and Zhe or whatever the hell they are can undo the fiction of reproductive heterosexuality you’ve descended into the 36th Chamber of Idiocy.
The last 5 minutes of her video remind me of Aurthur Schessinger making the same point in the 90’s. “Identity Culture” wasn’t in full swing yet, but he saw it coming. And he was a liberalist (NOT a liberal in the partisan sense)
Observe:
[embed]https://youtu.be/mFKFNdN8FbQ?t=1h7m48s[/embed]
I highly recommend that anyone who has time watch the whole thing. He is fascinating.
@ESR: “Don’t be a bloody idiot. Linus could falsify the claim with three words. It would be politically easy and safe for him to do so. It would land him in various complications to confirm it. Since both things are the case, a Bayesian would treat his silence as weak confirmation.”
Linus isn’t responding to your mention of him in your paranoid rant for the same reason that Obama or the Pope wouldn’t respond to it if you’d named them instead – you’re simply a nonentity to them, just like any other ranting idiot on the Internet. Hell, the only reason /I’m/ responding to you is because one of my character flaws is the enjoyment of online train-wrecks.
@Random832:
“Why would he? Let’s suppose that you’re Linus Torvalds, and you have no idea what this is about. What possible reason do I have to dignify it with a response?”
ESR likes to imagine that he’s Torvalds’ peer, & of equal importance to the world of FOSS. Very few other people think this, obviously.
>ESR likes to imagine that he’s Torvalds’ peer, & of equal importance to the world of FOSS. Very few other people think this, obviously.
This might astonish you, Nop, but I would be happier if you were anywhere near right. Indispensable men are very bad for their movements, and I’ve spent a lot of effort in the last ten years trying to not be that guy. I have not succeeded as well as I could wish.
In the kind of world-changing I’m trying to do, success is measured by the extent to which your radicalism becomes conventional wisdom and your name is correspondingly forgotten. One reason so many reformers fail is that they choose fame over victory, ego over ubiquity. One of my very first strategic choices when History tapped me on the shoulder in the late 1990s was to avoid that mistake.
By all means, go on believing I don’t matter much, and never did. I worked hard to give you the luxury of that ignorance, and I don’t regret it at all.
@ PapayaSF
Putnam also said this:
“[…] I think over the long run, as we get to know one another, and as we begin to see things that we have in common with people who don’t look like us, this allergy to diversity tends to diminish and to go away. So this is not something that I think as an argument against immigration. On the contrary, actually, I think in the long run we’ll all be better. But I don’t think that progressives and integrationists like me do our cause any service by hiding from ourselves the fact that it’s not easy.”
Cite: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663
>I think over the long run, as we get to know one another, and as we begin to see things that we have in common with people who don’t look like us, this allergy to diversity tends to diminish and to go away.
I’ve studied the history of multicultural polities, and I think Putnam is tragically wrong about this – it’s a perfect case of liberal wishful thinking clouding sober judgment.
What Putnam mistakes for long-term reduction in allergy to diversity is a reduction in diversity itself – mutual assimilation (we eat each others’ food, we celebrate each others’ holidays, we intermarry). Allergy to actual diversity is wired too deeply into the human backbrain to be socialized out. This is regrettable, but there were sound reasons for it in the environment of ancestral adaptation and we’re stuck with it.
Generally speaking, the historical pattern is you get to pick any two of three: (a) high trust, (b) ethnic diversity, (c) linguistic diversity. All three pairs are historically attested; the least familiar to modern Westerners is both kinds of diversity with low trust. Polyethnic empires like the Ottoman Empire were like that; the Former Soviet Union still is. What you don’t get as a stable situation is all three at once. When you try, social trust collapses. In modern terms, you get a failed state.
So, for example, the U.S. has a tradition of successfully managing ethnic diversity via linguistic uniformity and long-term mutual assimilation. There are people who think the latter two are dispensable. I think they are dangerous fools, ignorant of history, who have no idea what they’re messing with. Putnam isn’t helping.
@ssorbom: Ah, but quantity has a quality all its own, and it’s always possible to have too much of a good thing. An onion in the soup enhances, but add too many onions and all you get is wet onions.
>Linus could falsify the claim with three words. It would be politically easy and safe for him to do so. It would land him in various complications to confirm it. Since both things are the case, a Bayesian would treat his silence as weak confirmation.
You can hardly blame me for taking your words at face value:
> Linus does sometimes answer my mail, but has zero interest in borrowing the kind of political trouble talking about this would land him in.
Am I wrong for assuming that “talking about this” includes anything resembling a denial?
and later
>There are lots of reasons for Linus in particular to not get into this fight that don’t involve fear, and I won’t blame or criticize him if he doesn’t. I’m sure you can think of a few yourself.
Given that your prior belief is that Linus avoids talking about this kind of stuff, taking silence as “weak confirmation” make no sense. Perhaps you mean weak as in on the order of nil?
The thing that really stands out about this post is that you’ve stated that you can think of plenty of plausible reasons for Linus choosing not to speak out about a real-life conspiracy to entrap him, you apparently can think of none for why your 100% trustworthy and completely infallible source could be honestly mistaken about existence of said entrapment scheme.
***
>I will now speculate. If I were planning an op like this, I would hope that the target’s dick would lead him into temptation and make a pass, but settle for an unfalsifiable fabrication if I couldn’t get that.
My recent speculation: I think to accomplish such an op you actually only need one twisted individual to be in on it. (Not that I think such an op makes any sense …)
Step 1: Find young, reasonably attractive women interested in tech.
Step 2: Encourage them to seek out mentors, people you have specifically chosen because they are either (a) known for being good with women, or (b) known for being somewhat creepy.
Encourage mentee to be as friendly and enthusiastic as possible in front of her mentor.
Step 3a: Wait for a hookup to happen. Convince mentee that the hookup was, in fact, a serious violation of ethics, and an abuse of power. Get angry on mentee’s behalf.
Step 3b: Wait for some form of crossing the line to happen. Sympathize with mentee.
Step 4: Publish results and wait for outrage.
>Am I wrong for assuming that “talking about this” includes anything resembling a denial?
Yes. I wrote the second sentence you quoted under the assumption that my source is correct and Linus would have to confirm to respond honestly. Sorry for the confusion.
>The thing that really stands out about this post is that you’ve stated that you can think of plenty of plausible reasons for Linus choosing not to speak out about a real-life conspiracy to entrap him, you apparently can think of none for why your 100% trustworthy and completely infallible source could be honestly mistaken about existence of said entrapment scheme.
No, I can think of several. I just can’t talk about why I give them very low odds of being true. As I’ve said several times, the choice between living with your disbelief and possibly setting up a friend to have his career destroyed is easy.
@ PapayaSF
My point was that you seemed to be taking him out of context. I suggest you read/listen to the whole interview I cited.
@ESR: “By all means, go on believing I don’t matter much, and never did. I worked hard to give you the luxury of that ignorance, and I don’t regret it at all.”
LOL. Nice humble-brag, Eric, but no, you didn’t do much of anything for me or anyone else; GNU/Linux would be in much the same place if you’d never been born.
I really hope that Torvalds does comment on your claim, because I think that whatever he says would be funny as hell.
But assimilation isn’t necessarily coercion. We don’t ask people to forsake their old identities, just place them as secondary to being a freedom loving American. When ethnic groups learn this, problems tend to diminish. That is actually one of the broader points that the Arthur Sclessinger talk I posted earlier makes. I think feminists could reasonably be prevailed on to do the same thing in hacker culture (Which is why I posted in the first place). In short: diversity can be acknowledged and embraced so long as it is not at the expense of the “dominant” identity, In this case that is hackerdom.
I think most honest social movement start like this, and then get co-opted by radicals (The Black civil rights movement is a good example)
>I think feminists could reasonably be prevailed on to do the same thing in hacker culture
I would like this to be true, but both their theory and their observed behavior makes me highly skeptical.
For the record, I don’t think high trust is dispensable, and I have always been pro linguistic- uniformity at the political level. But again, I don’t think linguistic diversity should be done away with either. It just should be set aside for purposes of commerce or political discussion. Hackerdom mostly trades in English for a good reason, I noticed this rather prominently in “How to become a hacker”. But many, many hackers are mutli-lingual. This is the balance I would like to see struck in US Politics (yes, I am a native born citizen).
>Hackerdom mostly trades in English for a good reason, I noticed this rather prominently in “How to become a hacker”. But many, many hackers are mutli-lingual. This is the balance I would like to see struck in US Politics (yes, I am a native born citizen).
Agreed on both counts. But this is exactly why I took exception to your Putnam quote; I think he’s fostering the illusion that if we’re just patient enough, or social-engineer enough, allergy to diversity will diminish that nobody will have to make the choice to assimilate in order for the polity to be stable.
Troutwaxer- ‘a smart Women’s Studies graduate in the first year of her Masters would crush [eric} easily’
Uh yea.. which is why they are terrified of ‘mansplaining’. Screeching for censorship used to be evidence of being outargued, now it’s the hallmark of the rigorous feminist intellectual.
Oh wait? Did I mansplain? So sorry, here’s a hankie for you. Cry a little until you feel better. It’s not your fault you are so weak and insecure that you can’t deal with a mansplanation. It must really suck being such a pussy.
>It must really suck being such a pussy.
From the Department of Sorry-Just-Could-Not-Resist:
<deadpan-face>
It’s generally been my experience that the sucking happens at the other end.
</deadpan-face>
Not everybody needs to, I think. So long as a majority accept this, the minority can be soothed or ignored.
> SF fandom codes of conduct would be way more likely to institutionalize these signaling ribbons than ban them.
Only in a fantasy land of long-ago teenage boy wish fulfillment about how people act at science fiction conventions. In reality? Ye gods, no. The first time Richard M. Stallman groped a woman wearing such a ribbon we’d never hear the end of it. As with other such ideas, the “ick!” factor when someone unexpected tried it would cause the wearer to rethink their fantasy pretty quickly.
For those of you who don’t know rms personally, he tries to flirt with, and hits on, a very, very wide range of women. My transgender roommate after college considered it a proof of concept when Richard hit on her, post surgery. But unfortunately for Richard, his personal grooming habits….. reduce his likelihood of success profoundly. Note that I *like* Richard: talking to him is like talking to Moses, maybe halfway to the Promised Land when bathwater has been in short supply. He has a lot of interesting things to say, but you want to put a plastic sheet down on any furniture he might sit in.
>Only in a fantasy land of long-ago teenage boy wish fulfillment about how people act at science fiction conventions.
My experience as a fan trumps your theory. Fans like the ribbon-signaling system and use of it is increasing, not decreasing.
@troutwaxer: “Her “structural oppression” and “rape cultures” trump his second-hand ”
She, and you, have NEVER lived under either structural oppression or rape culture. Period F*cking Dot.
If either of you’d like to actually have the experience, I’ll spring for a one-way ticket to either Riyadh or Tehran. After a year, if you’re still alive, I’ll send you the ticket back.
And you know it to be true, because you say nothing about the only religion that has and still follows actual rape recommendations and slavery in its’ scriptures. After all, they’ll actually kill you.
Coincidently, this just showed up on my cough “FB” cough feed:
http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/06/the-new-totalitarians-are-here/
/me finished dumping gasoline and LOX on the fire
@John D Bell
I think the “new totalitarians” are not much different from the Taliban, Salafists, Iranian Moral police, the various semi-fascist parties in Europe (Fidesz of Hungary’s, the people around Radio Maria in Poland, Russian Orthodox nationalists), or Opus Dei for that matter.
After three generations since WWII, many people seem to get sick of other people having opinions. Although the Eastern Europeans might simply never got used to opinions.
Found on social media:
After a friend sent me a link to the news about ESR’s latest looney-toony rant making the rounds, which I had the misfortune to read after a glass or two of wine, making the vein in my forehead throb and my stomach turn. I thought about it a bit today as, though I know ESR is a crazy bastard, I think his allegation is destructive and corrosive, particularly at a time when we seem to be moving backwards in time, rather than forward, in terms of sexism in IT. (Warning for the delicate types: there may be needed swearing)
If you’re unfamiliar, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/06/linus_torvalds_targeted_by_honeytraps_says_eric_raymond/
I know ESR and have had the ‘joy’ of having him try to grope me and boast about his swinger lifestyle at various conferences. (The fact he’s a swinger and I couldn’t get a date until 25 is still something I puzzle over as surely there’s a lesson to be had in that) He’s about as smarmy and as unctuous as it gets and, yet, his confidence apparently works for many as he is a talented writer and communicator.
I find it rather hilarious that he’s paranoid about ‘honey traps’ when, in reality, he’s such a flagrant handsy sexist that no entrapment should be required as if you have tits, he’ll likely try and put his hands on you at some point on the conference circuit. I’m guessing that he’s just pissed that such behavior comes with consequences now with his dire warning that ‘high profile’ open sores [sic] personalities are being ‘targeted’. Total bullshit. The accomplished women won’t touch him, so I’m pretty sure the sorts he is describing are not the technical women in the community.
What makes me angry, though, is that he is a voice in the community which tends to impress the younger boys who see him as a role model, someone they’d like to aspire to be, and don’t quite understand just how fucking insane he is yet.
I’m tired of this shit. Full stop tired. It’s 2015 and these turds who grope their way around conferences and the like can make allegations like this, get a hand wave and an, “Oh, that’s just crazy Raymond!” Fuck that. Fuck it from here to hell and back. Here’s a man who really hasn’t done anything all that special, is a totally crazy gun-toting misogynist of the highest order and, yet, he remains mostly unchallenged after the tempest dies down, time after time. Can you imagine a woman without at least a Bachelor’s and serious credentials being allowed to bloviate for so long without being slid under the ice? No.
For every male perl guy I know with a daughter…tell me, do you want your girls to grow up and STILL have to deal with this shit?
Grow a pair, boys, and stand up to this asshat and a few others you know I’ve raged about over the years with little success since, you know, I’m just a predatory woman in search of sexy rich guys like ESR…LOL. Being silent and letting the loud idiots to continue to run amok simply won’t do anymore.
I’m sure ESR will still be haunting conferences when your daughters reach their professional years unless you get serious about outing the assholes like him and making the community a lot less toxic than it is now.?
>I’m sure ESR will still be haunting conferences when your daughters reach their professional years unless you get serious about outing the assholes like him and making the community a lot less toxic than it is now.?
Oh, yeah. I’m doing such a great job of “haunting professional conferences” that I went 11 years without going to a single one.
Is there an SJW mad-libs generator somewhere where you insert someone’s name and it cranks out this tripe? It seems pretty formulaic. “Couldn’t get a date till he was 25”, indeed. *snrk*
Propaganda this crude only convinces people only if they already desperately want to believe. I could write a better character assassination in my sleep.
Nop: “Found on social media:”
Found where on social media? Link, please. After all, if it’s on social media, it’s already out int eh open, and linking to it is not outing anyone.
As demonstrated by the comments in this post, a lot of reasonable people are inclined to think that the deviant behavior warning of the OP is an edge case of social dysfunction and consequently should not be overblown. Unfortunately, it is not an edge case, but a symptom of a much larger and systemic psychopathology.
For the first time in our specie’s history, we are living in a world of extraordinary affluence and mass communication. We have virtually no existential hardship, way too much discretionary time, and swim in an ocean of endless memetic stimulation.
Modeling suggests that we are at great risk of runaway sociopathies and our hereditary feedback mechanisms for self-correction are being undermined. In other words, our politics are aggressively promoting parasitism and once a critical threshold is exceeded, the host must die.
At it’s root, Eric’s argument is about survival.
@Jay Maynard: “Nop: “Found on social media:”
Found where on social media? Link, please. After all, if it’s on social media, it’s already out int eh open, and linking to it is not outing anyone.”
You mean like how Eric linked to /his/ IRC source? /s
Sorry, but anonymous claims work both ways; I’m not going to open someone up to harassment by identifying them. My comment was a direct cut & paste from a social media post, & you can either accept it or make up stories about it’s provenance – as I’m sure that commenters here will – but I’m not going to screw over the writer by identifying them.
Name 2 who actually *have* boobs. And not man-boobs, either.
Tom A.: At it’s root, Eric’s argument is about survival.
Indeed. At its roots, unwarranted conduct codes are no more than catalogues of flimsy justifications to drag the wrong thinkers into the public square and hang them from gibbets (xref Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Robespierre, the Dominicans and other SJW laureates).
This is only a precursor to concocted rape charges and the like as seen elsewhere, and denied of happening by TrueBeleivers. The vacuity of those promoting this Jacobinism is on full display here in this thread – refutation statements of fact non-existent; personal vilification paramount.
This is a perverse re-expression of “the personal is the political”: for political ends, they seek to destroy the person. Hitchens nailed it fully. Probably a relief for him that he is dead –
http://greylining.com/2015/05/01/hitch-on-the-origin-of-social-justice-warriors/
There are barbarians at the gates. They seek to burn your knowledge, reverse progress and impose a new dark age where faith (“listen and believe”) purges reality from their new secular theocracy.
@TomA: “At it’s root, Eric’s argument is about survival.”
Oh dog, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in my life. Are you seriously arguing that humanity will die off if guys stop creeping on women at public events?
@Nop: “I’m not going to open someone up to harassment by identifying them. My comment was a direct cut & paste from a social media post, & you can either accept it or make up stories about it’s provenance – as I’m sure that commenters here will – but I’m not going to screw over the writer by identifying them.”
Methinks the social justice warrior doth project too much.
@Nop: “Oh dog, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in my life. Are you seriously arguing that humanity will die off if guys stop creeping on women at public events?”
Funny how you seem to perceive this whole discussion to be about guys creeping on women at public events, when it began as a discussion about how to avoid being honeytrapped by women at public events. But even within that frame, professional survival on a personal level is clearly at issue here.
“Sorry, but anonymous claims work both ways; I’m not going to open someone up to harassment by identifying them. My comment was a direct cut & paste from a social media post, & you can either accept it or make up stories about it’s provenance – as I’m sure that commenters here will – but I’m not going to screw over the writer by identifying them.”
Except that an IRC channel is not a public forum and does not retain comments for folks who were not there when they were written. A social media post does.
The person you’re defending has already identified themselves. You can do no further damage.
So I’m forced to conclude you’re making this up. Standard SJW tactic, especially when one attacks the basis of SJWism.
Next, I expect someone to try to paint me as a sexual abuser for coming to Eric’s defense. To anyone who knows me, this would be quite laughable.
@Nop
Rule 1 of poisoning the well is it only works when done before the water has been drawn.
Nop: Oh dog, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in my life. Are you seriously arguing that humanity will die off if guys stop creeping on women at public events
Oh dog, could you do any more to confirm the points being made?
I don’t think I have seen such a concise blast of fallacious bullshit even on PZ Myers home base of Pharyngula.
Bravo. Your life has not been wasted.
Note how this accusation is clinically free of specifics – there is absolutely nothing about when it happened, where it happened, who it happened to, or who can vouch for it having happened. There is barely even anything about -what- happened – physical contact, yes, but nothing about the nature of it or under what circumstances.
It’s so cowardly that it’s embarrassing, and so talentless that it’s stupefying.
>Note how this accusation is clinically free of specifics
That’s why it reminds me of the output of a mad-libs generator. It’s pretty comically inept.
But I’ve actually seen worse. There is homosexual porn fiction on the web purporting to depict me in real life, so crude and ugly that this tripe looks like Jane Austen by comparison.
Meh. It’s all the cost of being willing to speak truth to evil thugs. I pay it willingly.
That which cannot withstand criticism or mockery is false
Diogenes of Sinope identified SJWs some 2,400 years ago.
Nothing has changed.
“There is homosexual porn fiction on the web purporting to depict me in real life”
Merciful $DEITY. You’re one of the most heterosexual guys I know.
>Merciful $DEITY. You’re one of the most heterosexual guys I know.
Indeed. Sometimes I think this is a shame. My forebrain approves of bisexuality. My hindbrain absolutely does not – I’m just not wired so it’s an option.
@esr: you haven’t made it as a SJW critic until you are accused of enjoying torturing small animals and being a physical threat to children in your extended family.
Lift your game son.
>Lift your game son.
I’m trying, I’m trying. I won’t consider that I’ve achieved ultimate level until contemplating my existence enrages SJWs so much that they start dropping dead of apoplexy.
@esr: “I’m trying, I’m trying. I won’t consider that I’ve achieved ultimate level until contemplating my existence enrages SJWs so much that they start dropping dead of apoplexy.”
Cue Nop describing that as threatening in three, two, one…
>: you haven’t made it as a SJW critic until you are accused of enjoying torturing small animals and being a physical threat to children in your extended family.
Larry Correia is almost at that point.
Besides. As salon and gawker have declared in their defense of Sarah Butts and others – being a pedo is simply to be misunderstood, and another victim class
Found it
https://plus.google.com/117846245886876007441/posts/JaHJf2KyGsP
She’s complained, even more vaguely, about ESR before, e.g. in a comment on
https://plus.google.com/wm/1/104205134740204626607/posts/8UjPQVgjAhP
Not sure who Randal is though I could guess (I assume not Allison Randal), there’s an earlier remark by Ben Tilly on perlmonks complaining about “Randal” describing visits to prostitutes and ESR “hitting on” women; no grabbing involved.
>She’s complained, even more vaguely, about ESR before
Elaine Ashton, eh? Neither name nor face rings any bells.
I think if she’d actually ever met me she could have constructed a more plausible slander. How would some woman I supposedly groped at a conference have any grounds to know that I couldn’t get a date until 25, even supposing it were true? Am I supposed to have told her this while planting my filthy hands on her anatomy, reducing my SMV catastrophically? Yeah, that sounds plausible.
*shakes head*
SJWism must cause brain damage. In real life, I’d sooner fuck a tree-stump than touch a chick this dimwitted.
(There we go. Allegations that “ESR has admitted to fucking tree-stumps” in 3…2…1…)
> ESR likes to imagine that he’s Torvalds’ peer, & of equal importance to the world of FOSS. Very few other people think this, obviously.
Nop – are you just a badly written IRC bit using Larry Correia’s “internet argument checklist” as its starting spec? If so – you seem overly stuck on disqualify.
> This is not true; some of them are plain Communist/Socialist indoctrination. There is still actually a difference, though not one that usually matters much in practice.
Recently the DNC chair stated that Bernie Sanders was indeed a “good Democrat” – and then when asked couldn’t define what the difference was between a good Democrat and a self-avowed socialist
> one of my character flaws is the enjoyment of online train-wrecks.
Ah. The mask slips.
Figured. Most SJWs seem to be bitter narcissists and border lines who enjoy watching others suffer.
I’d guess you liked torturing puppies as a kid too
@ssorbom
Problem is the SJWs have made it crystal clear that they have no intention on suborning identity to goal. Identity comes first.
An author stating that story/ etc should come first, and have whatever gender/etc you want in it was seen as an attack on “women /etc in SF”
Others have stated outright that proper politics was a basic measure of quality
“Found it
https://plus.google.com/117846245886876007441/posts/JaHJf2KyGsP
She’s complained, even more vaguely, about ESR before, e.g. in a comment on
https://plus.google.com/wm/1/104205134740204626607/posts/8UjPQVgjAhP”
SJWs gonna SJW.
Re: the post calling Eric a handsy misogynist: If the woman in the photo is the woman who authored the post, in all honesty I can’t imagine Eric not being able to keep his hands off her. I’ve learned a few of his attraction patterns, including that he is drawn to physical fitness in a woman. Something that lady… doesn’t have an abundance of.
So, more evidence needed for that claim.
>he is drawn to physical fitness in a woman
Hm…I don’t know that this is actually true, or if it is it’s a secondary metric. What you might be noticing is that I’m attracted to women who wear their bodies well, who have the kind of self-confidence that can come from being fit as well as other sources such as high intelligence (and I am very attracted to that).
I’ve been in the same room as an alpha male a time or two in my days, and my experience with them is that they flirt with women as easily as they breathe–and that women are almost universally receptive to it.
I have little doubt ESR has “hit on” women in droves in his days. I have significant doubt anyone has ever complained about it except intellectually co-opted white knights and women who are jealous it wasn’t them.
It’s not so much that the accusation is untrue as that it’s vacuous unto utter insignificance. That’s the “hit on” thing. The “groped my father’s brother’s nephew’s cousin’s former roommate’s wife” thing is… well, don’t make a drinking game out of drinking a shot every time you think of a reason that’s obviously a fabrication.
>I’ve been in the same room as an alpha male a time or two in my days, and my experience with them is that they flirt with women as easily as they breathe–and that women are almost universally receptive to it.
That is true. But there’s something else going on, too. I think sometimes alpha behavior in general (and mine in particular) may be interpreted as “flirting” even when the alpha’s genitals aren’t involved. It’s a matter of intensity and attention.
When I pay attention to someone I often engage totally, with my whole mind and intention on the communication. Most people do that much less often than me; they’re too distracted by the drunken-monkey chatter in their heads. But one of the few contexts that will reliably elicit near-total attention from a human primate is…trying to mate.
I think sometimes women get the kind of intensity from me that they’ve learned to associate only with men hitting on them, and not unreasonably jump to the conclusion that I’m doing that too. If I were what Jeff calls “subdominant” this kind of false triggering would give me a huge reputation as a creep. But, as he points out, the rules are different for high-SMV alphas. Rarely, the woman may be repulsed. More likely, her mating script takes over.
I only figured this out recently. It could explain a few curious incidents in my past – once or twice I’ve ended up in sexual situations I didn’t want to be in without a clear idea how it actually happened (and remember, I don’t drink). Because, well, if her mating script takes over, mine might follow.
It probably works the other way, too; that is, non-alphas are trained not to fully engage women by the creeper-card reaction they’re more likely to get if they do. And then, women complain that men don’t listen.
And isn’t it great the way SJW types are coming out of the woodwork to hurl obviously fabricated accusations at ESR just when he posts this warning? What an amazing coincidence!
ESR, you couldn’t buy confirmatory publicity this good.
@Jay Maynard: “So I’m forced to conclude you’re making this up. Standard SJW tactic, especially when one attacks the basis of SJWism.”
Except that one of your compatriots has linked to the post in question now, so anyone who cares to can easily verify that I /didn’t/ make it up, & that I was telling the truth about it being a direct C&P of that person’s comment.
Now would be the right time to apologise to me for calling me a liar.
“Next, I expect someone to try to paint me as a sexual abuser for coming to Eric’s defense. To anyone who knows me, this would be quite laughable.”
Indeed, as everyone who knows you knows that you have zero interest in women.
OMG, now tree stumps are going to start lobbying for victim status. Where does it end.
Nop, you are correct. You did not make that up. I apologize for saying you did.
The next time, though, you might consider how simple it was for someone else to find the post and just provide the fucking link yourself…
“Indeed, as everyone who knows you knows that you have zero interest in women.”
This is untrue. There are women I would very much enjoy sharing a bed with. They know who they are, and t’s nobody else’s damned business…a gentleman does not kiss and tell.
Elaine’s original phraseology was “I couldn’t get a date until age 25”. Meaning Elaine Ashton couldn’t, not esr.
Just remember, calling someone gay as an insult isn’t homophobic if a social justice warrior does it.
I think she means SHE couldn’t get a date until 25, something she finds quite unfair. (wait, isn’t the SJWs who say you aren’t entitled to sex or a date? Oh, right, that only applies to men,)
The comments on the post are quite telling: “And it felt creepy and uncomfortable watching him walk around a party.” I’d think they forget to put an accusation of misconduct in there, except I know SJW rules — their reaction is proof of the crime in itself.
‘the fact that he’s a swinger and I couldn’t get a date until 25 is still something I puzzle over’
I believe that’s a complaint that she could not get a date, while Eric sunk in Evil swings like swinging England.
>I believe that’s a complaint that she could not get a date, while Eric sunk in Evil swings like swinging England.
Ah. Correction accepted. Capital I can be hard to see in a small font.
OK, perhaps I was unfair and she’s got a working brain. Still don’t like the attitude.
@Jay Maynard: “Nop, you are correct. You did not make that up. I apologize for saying you did.”
Thank you, I appreciate that.
>>”Indeed, as everyone who knows you knows that you have zero interest in women.”
>This is untrue. There are women I would very much enjoy sharing a bed with. They know who they are, and t’s nobody else’s damned business…a gentleman does not kiss and tell.
A gentleman is guided by the preferences of the woman in question.
>A gentleman is guided by the preferences of the woman in question.
I agree. First civil and sensible thing you’ve said in this entire thread.
Gee, a woman whines about men below a post which actually compliments Shanley Kane. That probably tells you everything you need to know about her dating history. Kane is far better looking than Elaine and I’d date Kane precisely never. “Fun at parties” is a phrase these women should think about, because men surely do.
Nico Kadel-Garcia:
> My wife (who has more technology degrees than me!) pointd out this discusseion to me,
So right off you start out on the wrong foot, and display your bonefides. No, not the sloppy typing, but the suggestion that degrees mean anything outside of Academia, government and large bureaucratic organizations.
And leftists. Leftists seem inordinately fond of government approved credentials.
> This blog post… isn’t even funny.
No, it’s not fun. Or funny.
It’s a deadly serious problem, both for individuals and for society.
We are at a point where the technology that keeps our society alive, in some places literally, is so complicated and has so many moving parts that we simply can’t afford not to keep competent people in competent places, and we can’t *force* them to be there and to be productive, they have to want to be.
> already shut down. It smacks of the accusations made against political rights groups
> that I’ve been hearing for over 35 years. I have no doubt the suffragettes encountered
> similar tarbaby-like acusations.
You mean like the arsonists targeting black churches? ( http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/st-louis-black-church-arson/411673/ )
Uh: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/2/black-man-charged-in-st-louis-church-burnings/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/11/06/whos_burning_black_churches_oh_128660.html
> In that 40 years time I’ve seen so many *actual* cases of harassment by men in power
Have you? How many times have you gone to HR about it?
> that sullying the waters with a poorly grounded and unverifiable claim of entrapment
> is poisoning the waters and discrediting the women who really are harassed and
No one is denying that women get harassed by men. Hell, my wife came near to smacking (and by “near” I mean she swung a backhand at him and missed) hispanic man who made kissy noises at her as she walked past.
We also don’t deny that there are men out there who *literally* have no idea how to behave around women. Or that when folks get to pouring judgement juice down their throats that mis-understandings can happen.
But it’s these things that give the SJWs power. We (most men) want women to be treated fairly, but fairly doesn’t mean that one sex gets to decide what’s fair and how people should act in the workplace.
> willing to report it. It’s disingenuous, especially considering some of the alternative
> reasons your “anonymous source” might have to make such a claim:
The source isn’t anonymous to ESR.
@ Dgarsys
Actually the data about ideologies in political science would suggest this isn’t true.
I have seen again and again in various aspects of political science data that says that 10% of people make 80%+ of the noise. With respect, I think you are being biased by the fact that so many “SJW”s are attention seeking–by definition.
Lookup studies on rebel movements for comparison. Only 10% are truly ideologically motivated
Apparently they’re coming for you, Eric:
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/11/05/any-woman-in-tech-could-be-a-false-accusing-feminist-honey-trap-addled-open-source-guru-warns/
Troutwaxer:
> Let me illustrate with an example: You go to a tech conference and hear a slightly
> overweight, (10-15 pounds) but otherwise good-looking woman say, “I filed a complaint
> with HR because I’m stuck in a room full of Dew-guzzling brogrammers who alternately
> stare at my tits and give me “suggestions” for losing weight. The final straw was when
> I just got an anonymous dick-pic in my work email.”
A counter example:
1) They did look at her tits. Because they’re men AND WE DO THAT. Doesn’t mean anything other than they’re tits and we notice them. Women have different ideas about what “professional” attire means. When men are given the choice of how to dress they wind up in shorts or jeans and t-shirts or hoodies. When women aren’t held to professional standards (and even when they are) they wind up in clothing that that really does seem to be intended to attract the male gaze.
This is your “10 to 15 pound overweight but otherwise good looking woman” right here: http://cdn.glamcheck.com/fashion/files/2011/05/business-woman-attire.jpg I’ve seen that look (more or less) in workplaces on on 4 continents.
Every man in the office will look at her tits at least twice a day when she wears that. They’ll note what color her bra is. They’ll notice the skirt is a *little* too tight and her muffin top because the shirt is a little too sheer.
You dress in a properly fitting t-shirt (crew neck, not v-neck) and jeans that don’t need a shoe-horn to get on, and the male gaze won’t linger as much.
Of course, if businesses really wanted to fix this problem they’d develop sex-neutral dress codes, but then women would complain because SEXISM or something.
2) I’ve met damn few women who didn’t occasionally complain about wanting to lose weight. I’ve met damn few geeks who don’t want to solve problems. You mention a problem to a geek, he’s going to give you a solution. For us IT REALLY IS ABOUT THE NAIL. ( if you don’t know what I’m taking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg ). For women it ISN’T.
So what we have here is the traditional “Mars Venus” problem. And yes, I think this is the root of *most* sexual harassment claims (not all, and not the worst of them). There are a very small number of predators out there, a large number of men (especially in IT) who have no clue how to behave around women.
There are also a lot of women who expect men to behave like women. We generally don’t. Our brains are different, we generally approach the world differently and we communicate very differently.
TriggerFinger:
> And the final straw? Your hypothetical complainer with her hypothetical anonymous
> dick-pic clearly doesn’t know anything about technology if she thinks that the email can
> actually be anonymous. THAT she is justified about complaining about, but I’d bet she
> sent it to herself.
You have heard of onion routers, disposable email accounts and type II remailers (aka “cypherpunk remailers”), no?
No?
One of the companies my wife worked a fired their lead programmer for sending porn to at least one of his female co-workers. He was a bit deranged and really had no idea how to behave around women. He *really* thought it would get him a date.
>One of the companies my wife worked a fired their lead programmer for sending porn to at least one of his female co-workers. He was a bit deranged and really had no idea how to behave around women. He *really* thought it would get him a date.
Wait. That guy wan’t going to use an anonymous remailer. For his purposes he wanted the women to know where the porn came from.
I’m with TriggerFinger on this – I thought some scenarios through when he first posted. Yes, anonymous remailers do exist but the odds of a woman getting a dick pic through one seem really low to me. I’ve never sent one myself, but the only reason I could even imagine doing it is if I thought it would make the recipient want sex with me. Not going to happen if she has no clue who I am!
Or, I might be too rational to model the thought processes of dick-pic senders. I dunno.
> Lewinsky was classic, real sexual harassment of exactly the type that most workers in
> the US have to attend “training” about every year.
There were sources at the time that indicated that (a) Lewinsky had a track record of romances with married men and said “I’m going to the White House to get my presidential kneepads.” to one of their wives.
So while I do think Clinton was a moral scumbag and a sexual predator (Flowers, Jones, Broaddrick), I think that in Lewinsky he found a willing and eager associate.
> If my boss had done that to any of my female peers, he would rightfully have been fired
> and likely imprisoned.
Nah, that sort of thing happens all the time. There are just some folks whose self control is weaker than their drives.
@WilliamOBlivion:
There are a couple problems with this. Let’s start with your example.
First, the guy who did it was fired. Appropriate response to personal misbehavior. Second, it was “porn”, not a dick-pic. (Granted, not all that different). Third, if he thinks that behavior would get him a date, it can’t be sent anonymously. Fourth, I don’t deny that that sort of bullshit happens *ever*, but it has never happened in my experience to anyone I know, nor has anyone I know mentioned it happening in any context outside of “I saw this story on the news”.
Now, back to the hypothetical dick-pic: if you sent it anonymously, how does she know one of her coworkers sent it? Could easily be random spam, and if it is anonymous, it’s not going to be getting anyone a date. If it’s a true dick-pic (ie, a selfie) then the list of suspects can be narrowed down considerably from that. While it’s true that there are online anonymity systems that work reasonably well (against anyone who doesn’t have the resources of the NSA at least), when you start with a narrow list of suspects (the dew-drinking brogrammers) and set out to try to narrow it down to one of them, AND throw in a company’s HR investigation into it, I doubt anonymity could be successfully preserved even if one of those services was used. And I wouldn’t bet on someone stupid enough to send a dick-pic to a coworker would be smart enough to use an anonymizer, as your example itself demonstrates.
Email anonymity is harder than most people think.
“>a gentleman does not kiss and tell.
A gentleman is guided by the preferences of the woman in question.”
Too often, it winds up like
For some reason, people feel compelled to brag about their conquests. I never thought it was anyone’s business but those involved.
This mad-libs accusation from Elaine Ashton, whoever she is, got me to wondering about something I’ve never thought about before. Namely; why does groping in places like parties ever happen?
I groped a woman once. After a date, in her dorm room. It was a dumb adolescent mistake that I’ve never repeated, but at least it sort of made sense in context. We were in private, bed nearby, I was trying to begin or continue the mating dance. Didn’t work, but no permanent harm was done. We didn’t date again.
What is motivating a man who gropes a woman at a party? I mean, they probably can’t have sex there. Has he got some idea that she’s going to swoon in lust and follow him home? Does this actually happen? If it doesn’t, what’s the actual reward here?
I think this might be one of those things I don’t grasp because I don’t drink.
What is motivating a man who gropes a woman at a party?
The chance to touch a breast that they may never get to touch otherwise?
>The chance to touch a breast that they may never get to touch otherwise?
I like breasts just fine. They feel nice. But – and maybe it’s just me – I basically don’t see the point if touching a breast isn’t foreplay that is rather likely to lead to sex. (I’ll make an exception here for adolescent boys who aren’t used to touching breasts yet. Curiosity about them is more than reasonable.)
Is there some larger thing I’m missing here? Am I different from other men in some significant way?
You’ve never seen two unattractive drunk people dry-humping in a quiet corner at a party?
You’re lucky that way.
I’m not much of a partier, and I’ve seen enough successful hooking up at parties to know its viable. (There’s always an empty bedroom or the like somewhere, or you adjourn down the hall at a dorm party, or leave and catch a cab, etc etc)
>You’ve never seen two unattractive drunk people dry-humping in a quiet corner at a party?
Nope. I never go to parties where it gets that drunk out.
>I’m not much of a partier, and I’ve seen enough successful hooking up at parties to know its viable.
OK, so are you actually saying that gropes can lead to hookups? If so, then that’s my answer. Men do believe that groping a woman can get them laid, and the belief is justified.
Weird, and not what I would have expected, but maybe that means I don’t get out enough.
@esr: I think the truth is a bit more subtle than that. I think it pretty much amounts to an instinctive mating behavior that is normally inhibited by social conditioning. Some groping is consensual or at least not objected to and sometimes leads to further sexual activity; I would class this as a sexual escalation tactic that moves an interaction from ambiguous to openly sexual and, in your terminology, fires off the mating script for the female if she is willing. Some groping is non-consensual (usually expressed after the fact, I suspect) and usually leads to reduced or eliminated chances of sexual activity with that partner and anyone else in the immediate vicinity.
So, going to a party and randomly groping people is not likely to lead to hookups — but most hookups probably can trace the steps leading up to the hookup to one that includes groping or what sex-ed teachers used to call “heavy petting”… and I suspect that the reason for this is that the activity works, *when not immediately rejected*, and that the people who do not get immediately rejected when trying this have prepared the ground ahead of time, so to speak.
> but most hookups probably can trace the steps leading up to the hookup to one that includes groping
Sure. It’s starting with a grope, in public, that confuses me. The version of the mating dance I learned starts with kissing, with mutual groping happening after both parties are already committed to an interaction that is explicitly sexual. Kissing may be public, but groping is generally postponed until privacy has been achieved and is immediately prefatory to stripping for action.
What you are suggesting is that some men consider groping functionally equivalent to a first kiss, and correctly expect that some women will respond to it that way. Which, again, strikes me as weird, but maybe I don’t get out enough. Or drunk enough.
Groping is both
(1) A long way down the natural progression of foreplay (or mating ritual if you prefer that term), and
(2) Doing it wrong.
It’s something teenage boys are prone to do because they don’t know any better and are trying to fake knowing what they’re doing. It’s embarrassing to see anyone over 20 do.
My own experience is damn near 100% that if a woman is attracted to a man SHE will initiate physical contact, usually innocuously (touching the forearm or playful finger to the chest or etc.) From there the tit-for-tat progression of the mating ritual should be natural. (Of course “subdominant” guys who don’t get much interest from women haven’t a clue how the game is supposed to be played. ))
Is my experience unusual or erroneous in that regard?
>Is my experience unusual or erroneous in that regard?
No, or at least it’s consistent with mine. A very confident man may initiate by touch a women in a way that is ambiguously sexual, inviting her to either back off or escalate, but the mating dance doesn’t really begin until she touches him.
I take it you never went to Disclave before it got blackballed from the more reputable DC hotels, and got shut down permanently in 1997. They were notorious for their…. “parties”, and wound up closing back in 1997, the year after some fool handcuffed a woman to a sprinkler at a convention party. Adventures in plumbing ensued, and no hotel wanted them again without a very, *very* large security deposit.
>Adventures in plumbing ensued, and no hotel wanted them again without a very, *very* large security deposit.
I was at the Disclave where the sprinkler disaster occurred, but not part of the BDSM scene so I didn’t go to those parties.
@esr: I think starting with a grope is usually caused by artificially lowered inhibitions of the groper and is only successful when the inhibitions of the gropee have also been artificially lowered. I suspect that some men do consider groping to be functionally similar to a first kiss and that some women react to it that way when already positively inclined towards the groper. I suspect those who do it in public are too drunk to consider anything at the time, and would probably start with a kiss if they were capable of considering their surroundings with more clarity.
I also suspect there’s more inherent ambiguity to a certain type of “grope” than a kiss. A kiss is pretty explicitly sexual. A “grope” could describe anything from deliberate and undeniable contact with erogenous zones to accidentally brushing against someone. A successful “grope” approach would actually include multiple ambiguous contacts with various areas, judging the reaction to each, and escalating when the reactions are positive.
But the only time I would expect to see the crude “just grab ’em” grope occur is when one party is too drunk to stop the impulsive act and the only time I would expect to … err… not see but infer that it was successful is when the other party is drunk enough to stop the impulsive response.
(note: for purposes of this discussion, I am NOT using groping with the suggested definition “doing it wrong”)
The advice that I’ve seen is that if you’re going to ‘initiate’ by touching, you want it to be both confident and clearly _non_-sexual. If there’s any goal to such a gesture, it is to activate the mammalian affiliation and grooming scripts well before the “mating dance” enters the picture – in effect, you’re looking for a way of honestly conveying: “I’m not hostile or hopelessly low status” in a way that her System 1 will hopefully grok.
>> do not be alone with any female, ever
> I understand that was Billy Graham’s professional policy all his life. And for exactly the same reason.
I worked for BGEA, and this policy was company-wide.
TriggerFinger, in a descriptive context like this, it makes no sense to use “grope” other than for clearly sexualized contact. Accidental brushing that does not even involve erogenous ones is not “groping”, although it may definitely start a “mating dance” escalation that does transition into groping. There’s nothing at all that’s mysterious here – we’re talking about basic behavioral cues that are strongly conserved in mammalian lines and are routinely expressed in _affiliative_ contexts that have nothing to do with mating or sex. As any pussy whisperer could tell you.
(*fixed link)
@ Triggerfinger: Yeah, and my mom would totally beat up your dad. Totally. With one breast tied behind her back or removed entirely.
Not my point. I’m not particularly fond of either point of view, though I agree with Eric’s motives, but I can tell the difference between an argument made from a high level of sophistication and an argument made from a low amount of sophistication. So I’m not advocating for a side, but engaging in odds-making and showing my work.
…. and your idea of an intelligent map of reality consists of structural oppression and rape culture?
Yes and no.
Keep in mind that I agree with Eric’s motives BUT I’m looking for a more sophisticated model of the stuff he’s trying to talk about. The simple fact is that third wave feminism is a pretty much nuts. But they live right next door to second wave feminism, which has a fairly intelligent model of reality, so they can go to the neighbors and borrow a cup of sanity any time it pleases them. And that’s my point.
I’m not really concerned, in this discussion, about whether “structural oppression” and “rape culture” are sane. (Both “structural oppression” and “rape culture” are filters one can use to look at reality. Sometimes they’re the right (sane) filter, and sometimes they’re the wrong (insane) filter. This gets really complex and I’m not going to address it here.)
However, “structural oppression” and “rape culture” are sophisticated arguments grounded in a complex worldview and in a well-moderated argument they’ve got substantial advantages over “Ebil SJWs are trying to destroy the Open Source movement.” From an odds-making POV, Eric’s arguments are well-known and there are obvious counters, while “structural oppression” and “rape culture” have considerable heft and are devastating when used properly.
I’m not saying that Eric is wrong. I’m saying that he’s at a massive rhetorical disadvantage.
@ James May: The deeper into women’s studies one goes the crazier one gets, so Troutwaxer’s comment makes little sense. When you get to the part where proper pronouns like Zir and Zhe or whatever the hell they are can undo the fiction of reproductive heterosexuality you’ve descended into the 36th Chamber of Idiocy.
Somewhat agreed. As I said, I’m essentially a second wave feminist (as is Eric) and the third wave of feminism is in pretty bad shape sanity-wise. I have a half-serious theory about this: Back in the mid/late-sixties, when it became de-rigeur for colleges to develop a Women’s Studies department, the male-chauvinists who ran Universities at the time sought out the least-sane feminists they could possibly find to run those departments… the women who were very rigid/brittle, or had bad issues with sex, or who were a little paranoid… whatever form the insanity took, and promoted those feminists over the ones who are actually sane, thus making them the gate-keepers of feminism.
Unfortunately, in doing so, they gave the lunatics the keys to the asylum. And here we are!
>However, “structural oppression” and “rape culture” are sophisticated arguments grounded in a complex worldview
You misspelled “mostly bullshit grounded in volk-Marxism”.
Dgarsys on 2015-11-07 at 12:09:08 said:
>: you haven’t made it as a SJW critic until you are accused of enjoying torturing small animals and being a physical threat to children in your extended family.
// Larry Correia is almost at that point.
Besides. As salon and gawker have declared in their defense of Sarah Butts and others – being a pedo is simply to be misunderstood, and another victim class //
No, their insinuation was more along the lines that I like to burn kids with cigarettes or lock them in boxes with spiders.
There is no bottom to the SJW barrel to scrape. Nothing is too vile for them when it comes unbelievers.
To paraphrase Orwell, there are some arguments so stupid that only intellectuals will believe them.
Actually, according to the filk written about it, it was Disclave 1997 that had the sprinkler incident….
@Troutwaxer: “From an odds-making POV, Eric’s arguments are well-known and there are obvious counters, while “structural oppression” and “rape culture” have considerable heft and are devastating when used properly.”
… with the minor flaw that in modern Western civilization they have absolutely no connection with reality.
@Troutwaxer: “I’m not saying that Eric is wrong. I’m saying that he’s at a massive rhetorical disadvantage.”
… only in front of an audience of people who already believe in rape culture and structural oppression. Since you are one of them (see the second part of your comment) obviously those arguments work on you. To people who have already examined and rejected them as having no connection to reality, they are not just unconvincing, they are signifiers that the person using them has a minimal connection to reality to begin with.
It really is amusing how “Women’s studies departments at universities are run by the people who escaped from the insane asylum” is somehow the fault of the Patriarchy.
“while “structural oppression” and “rape culture” have considerable heft and are devastating when used properly.”
“Properly” here means “in front of an audience sufficiently idiotic, nuts, or indoctrinated (and no, those are far from mutually exclusive) to accept the idea that those arguments aren’t made up of distilled essence of bullshit”.
Where your premise fails is in its slavish devotion to complexity and sophistication instead of truth. The truth is often simple and stares anyone willing to look straight in the face.
@guest: I acknowledge the ambiguity of the term and the context. I understand clearly what I am trying to convey, but the words are less precise than the concept.
@ Nop: ESR likes to imagine that he’s Torvalds’ peer, & of equal importance to the world of FOSS. Very few other people think this, obviously.
Sorry Nop. I argue with Eric’s politics all the time, but he’s one of the really important people in the FOSS world. Deal.
@ Eric: So, for example, the U.S. has a tradition of successfully managing ethnic diversity via linguistic uniformity and long-term mutual assimilation. There are people who think the latter two are dispensable. I think they are dangerous fools, ignorant of history, who have no idea what they’re messing with.
Agreed completely. I’m a melting-pot man, and I’m the descendant of people who happily melted… The melting-pot has great curry!
Or, I might be too rational to model the thought processes of dick-pic senders. I dunno.
I don’t get it either. I wrote the original “is it harassment” case with some deliberation, making sure that it would push a button or two. It’s been fun reading the replies!
OK, so are you actually saying that gropes can lead to hookups? If so, then that’s my answer. Men do believe that groping a woman can get them laid, and the belief is justified.
Only if the woman is either poorly-socialized or drunk enough to respond to a non-standard mating strategy. And this creates problems for other women down the line, because men generalize and decide that groping is the generally successful mating strategy, when in fact it only works with a minority of women.
Of course, it gets more complicated than that. If you want to mate successfully, you must grope* at a particular time in the sequence of events which leads to mating. If you grope too early the woman will be unhappy – she’s not ready yet. If you don’t grope, however, you don’t move on to the next step.
* “Groping” is probably the wrong word here. The male who is mating must engage in progressively more intense stimulation of the female breasts and buttocks, but only at the right time and in the right sequence… Obviously this is a generalization and the correct “sequence” will vary from woman to woman and culture to culture.
@ Jay Maynad: … only in front of an audience of people who already believe in rape culture and structural oppression. Since you are one of them (see the second part of your comment) obviously those arguments work on you. To people who have already examined and rejected them as having no connection to reality, they are not just unconvincing, they are signifiers that the person using them has a minimal connection to reality to begin with.
This is why I say well-moderated, and this comes down to definitions. I don’t want to dive too deeply into this, but let’s imagine a person who is black. Said black person may experience prejudice, right? Now imagine a different person who is handicapped. This person might also experience prejudice. Now imagine a third party who is a Lesbian. She might experience prejudice due to her homosexuality.
All of this is obvious, right? We know that Lesbians, blacks, and handicapped people sometimes have real problems with prejudice, so this is pretty much inarguable.
Now imagine a single person who is black, handicapped, and Lesbian. Conceivably she might face prejudice on account of being black, OR on account of being handicapped, OR on account of being homosexual. Or she might face prejudice on account of being black AND on account of being handicapped AND on account of being homosexual.
That combination of multiple kinds of prejudice is “intersectionality.” Once I define it, (and presuming that I don’t let you redefine it, which is crucial) it’s very difficult to argue that it might exist, or that it might be a useful term. Intersectionality does exist, and once it is properly defined it can’t be argued with effectively. You might argue that a particular person didn’t experience it, or that finding a black, handicapped Lesbian is unlikely (pro tip: run the numbers) but you can’t argue the concept out of existence as long as you aren’t allowed to redefine it.
(Redefining the other person’s term of art is unfair. Would you let an SJW redefine the meaning of a word like “database” or “fence-post error?”)
Given a well-moderated debate (much less a free-for-all of the type current news-mongering practice is likely to encourage) Eric can’t win, because a good moderator understands that feminist scholarship has “terms of art” which Eric isn’t allowed to redefine, just like programming has terms of art which an SJW is not allowed to redefine.
I’m giving you strategic gold here. Don’t throw it away just because you don’t like the messenger.
Where your premise fails is in its slavish devotion to complexity and sophistication instead of truth. The truth is often simple and stares anyone willing to look straight in the face.
Agreed, but we’re talking about strategies for fighting people who have a sophisticated ideology and don’t care much about the truth, right?
Jay, I’m just sitting on the sidelines trying to give some useful commentary. From my point of view the idea of a false rape or harassment claim is vile. So is Eric’s tendency to throw out the “possibly real injustice” baby with the bathwater. Both strategies lead to bad outcomes for everyone, right? As a computer/network guy, my sympathies in this fight kinda-sorta lie with Eric, but my moral judgement is something like “Let both these asses be set to grinding corn.”
@ esr: You misspelled “mostly bullshit grounded in volk-Marxism”.
See my response to Jay above. A big part of the problem is that you believe your definitions of things like “rape culture” are the same as a feminist’s definition of the same term. They’re not. This lack of sophistication is why you will lose the argument out in the wider world. As I noted to Jay, the STEM side gets more of my sympathy than the SJW side, but dude, you gotta up your game if you want to win this battle!
The definition of “Rape Culture” is simple, and I think everyone can agree on it: Rape Culture is the idea that current Western society approves of or accepts rape as a normal thing.
There are only two kinds of minds so disturbed that they actually believe this about modern Western societies: SJWs and some small fraction of rapists.
> You misspelled “mostly bullshit grounded in volk-Marxism”.
You misspelled “cod-Marxism.”
@Troutwaxer –
(quoting myself:)
> You misspelled cod-Marxism.
And I literally meant the part about self-parody.
“Given a well-moderated debate (much less a free-for-all of the type current news-mongering practice is likely to encourage) Eric can’t win, because a good moderator understands that feminist scholarship has “terms of art” which Eric isn’t allowed to redefine”
Of course. If you reason from premises made of distilled bullshit, you’ll get bullshit results.
And a debate where you can’t question the other side’s premises is not a debate at all.
The difference between feminist scholarship terms of art and software engineering terms of art is that the latter have measurable, testable correctness (does the program run?); the former cannot be distinguished from any other form of distilled bullshit.
@Troutwaxer:
This definition of intersectionality, taken to its logical conclusion, means that everybody is unique. Which I’m pretty sure that most people here agree with.
Where things fall apart is the “I’m more unique than you so my experiences mattter more.”
Thanks, ESR. I appreciate the reminder/warning and I will certainly be careful. It’s good to know someone is looking out for us!
@J.C. Salomon
That’s the obvious definition, but it’s not quite what it means to modern feminist types. The genuine, honest ones try to qualify it, and understand it is a very imperfect term for what it tries to describe. The nasty or stupid ones either take it at face value or use it as a baiting term without the required qualifiers, thus making it nearly impossible to debate in good faith.
From what I’ve seen, the insanity and dishonesty do not come with varying the definition I’ve given, but in temporarily redefining and trivializing rape so that more aspects of Western society can be accused of creating a “rape culture”.
“That’s the obvious definition, but it’s not quite what it means to modern feminist types.”
Then they’re engaging of the same kind of dishonest argument by redefinition RMS engages in with “free software”.
Above, @Troutwaxer defines the term intersectionality but avoids defining rape culture because there is no definition of rape culture that is not immediately and obviously absurd. Others define rape culture in a useful, effective, and accurate way, but miss the full absurdity of the problem.
Rape culture can be defined as a culture in which the practice of rape is approved of or encouraged, as defined above.
Rape culture can also be defined within the feminist community as a culture which practices and encourages heterosexual sex (because heterosexual sex is always rape, because structural oppression and false consciousness negate any possible consent).
Understanding both aspects of the definition is necessary in order to understand just how crazy the people fully caught in this philosophical black hole are.
@JCSolomon, who commented while I was typing this up: exactly.
ESR: I have a different view of groping in public. Keep in mind sexual dynamics in group animals, where typically only the alpha(s) are allowed to mate with females. A low-status male who initiates mating behavior with a female in public gets put in his place.
Public groping is functionally a claim of status – ‘I can get away with publicly and unambiguously showing my sexual interest for you’. If a major violation of the pack dynamics, men will batter me and women shame me. For a minor violation, men will ridicule – ‘get a room!’ – and women will try to pull the girl away – ‘I really need to talk to you right now, Amanda, it’s important’.
Public groping makes sense, because it allows the woman to gauge not only her own interest in the man, but also how the -group- responds to his advances. It’s a way to crowdsource her judgement of the man. The information value of this sort of signalling depends on whether the crowd knows and cares about the people involved – some hundred years ago, a young woman would likely have her -father- present. But instincts haven’t necessarily caught up with these developments.
>Public groping makes sense, because it allows the woman to gauge not only her own interest in the man, but also how the -group- responds to his advances. It’s a way to crowdsource her judgement of the man.
Aha. Very interesting theory, and the sort of generative explanation I was looking for.
It suggests that if you plot incidence of public groping, it will peak among high betas. Lower-status males won’t generally dare try it, and alphas have less need to – they can start the conventional mating script with their status already established. Which might explain why I have trouble comprehending the motivation.
As an illustration of the above – consider what you have learned about someone hitting on you, if they are okay with having a picture of them sitting in your lap with their tongue down your throat uploaded on Facebook and tagged with name.
Also, it’s necessary context to understand why the scarequotes sensible thing to do, when a man hits on you at work, is to report it to your superiors rather than just telling him you’re not interested.
Troutwaxer: See my response to Jay above. A big part of the problem is that you believe your definitions of things like “rape culture” are the same as a feminist’s definition of the same term. They’re not. This lack of sophistication is why you will lose the argument out in the wider world.
My what a snide, belittling, dogma-versed bitch you are. You want to know what “rape culture” is? Nothing you want it to be. It is a class of rhetorical dirty trickery that Robert Lifton classified as thought terminating cliches –
http://greylining.com/2013/02/14/the-thought-terminating-cliche/
– a loaded snarl phrase designed, not to engage dialogue and exchange of ideas, but to silence them and grind discourse to a shuddering halt.
This language loading is a classic Kafkatrap – to question the existance of “rape culture” is to be an enthusiastic, card carrying member of it. And guilty of all of the other criminality that festers in 3rd wave fembots’ emotional misandrist baggage. Its usage is exactly the same as bourgeoisie and speculator were under Mao – not only a termination of thought/discussion, but a black mark to brand those that disagree as ideological pariahs and enemies of the state.
I simply can’t respect anyone that considers this kind of idiot language to have any kind of intellectual validity. At all. It is a sign of a mind that is not firing on all cylinders, a mind that has cauterized the synapses it is told to in order to avoid questioning articles of faith. You want to know why SJWs are where they are? Because there is a critical mass of moderates like yourself that have trained themselves not to call bullshit bullshit on the spot. I do not blame SJWs for our mess – I blae YOU. Because YOU enabled it.
Those G+ posts give me middle school flashbacks. It’s a bunch of otherwise unpopular people who nevertheless think they are better than you, and they all are taking turns critiquing your looks, your personality, and exclaiming “ewwwww” to each other. F*** them.
I still think you’re wrong for having published this, but I side with you while telling you that, than ever siding with people like them.
Here’s your “rape culture” Troutwaxer –
http://i.imgur.com/9Lrx9yY.jpg
Anonymous, I have no doubt that the dynamic you describe is at play _in strongly hierarchical or traditional social environments_. It is essentially the heterosexual counterpart of what ESR calls domination sex in the homosexual context. Modern BDSM could be described as an attempt to channel these same dominance/submission instincts into a form that’s clearly consensual and not so entangled with duress and degradation – and a remarkably successful one, if only to the extent that the the “tops” actually play by the new rules.
This is the grain of truth to be found in some feminist anti-assault campaigns: what’s often referred to as “teach men not to rape” is better described as “teach men that coercive behavior is unacceptable and should be actively opposed, even and especially when it comes from your close associates or from high-status folks in your social group.” Now, if only these folks practiced what they preach…
The condonement of rape in rape culture is best understood not as overt condonement, but effective condonement which arises out of several factors:
1) The high evidentiary standard required to officially recognize that rape has taken place
2) The personally humiliating examinations a woman must go through because of item 1
3) Because of items 1 and 2, women are often afraid to go to the cops with rape accusations, meaning rapes and sexual assaults are woefully underreported.
4) “Slut shaming” — in conservative communities, often a female who is sexually active outside a marriage is shamed and ostracized, irrespective of whether she consented to such activity, adding to her shame and humiliation
5) Outright misogyny — false beliefs that women, especially liberated women, are more prone to treachery or to irrational emotion-fueled behavior
6) Because of items 1, 4, and 5, women who come forward with rape accusations are often disbelieved, especially if the rapist is well liked or respected
All these combine to create an environment where women’s claims of rape are not taken as seriously as they should be; and where rapists get away with it more often than they should.
So the theory goes, anyway. The SJW line is one of “insufficient vigilance = acceptance”. I’m not sure I buy it completely. I concede that there are problems with how we handle rape in the USA, but a) the extent of the problem, and therefore possible solutions (beyond “a Glock in every purse” championed by the likes of Eric) remain obscure and b) we *are* getting better.
You mean, the standard to convict a particular person of this rape. There is no analog to a coroner’s verdict of homicide (separate from a criminal conviction) in rape cases.
If you want official recognition that a rape has taken place (he proposes modestly), criminalize consensual sex outside marriage, with being raped as an obvious affirmative defense. This defense being offered, charges will obviously not be brought against the woman—and voilà! you also have official recognition of the rape, with a much lower standard of proof.
Troutwaxer- ‘Once I define it, and presuming that I don’t let your redefine it, which is crucial‘
Make up your own definitions, argue by definition, by definition you win argument, yes.
If I was in college with an 80-95 IQ I’d be arguing this way too. Especially in college, around these triple-digit IQ elitists with their oppressively good study habits and houses full of books. I’d make general statements using terms I define, I’d hold my ground and ‘maintain state’ as the pickup artists say. I’d display all the proper hatreds. I’d be a loyal cog in the Democratic Party. I’d have no choice.
In the context of all this rational discourse regarding feminist memes such as rape culture, has anyone here actually had a civil and rational discussion with a Third Wave feminist, such that there was some hope of enlightenment or mutual understanding? If you have, please provide some insight to the rest of us.
My own view is that extreme SJW women are either psychotic memebots or desperately in need of relationship. If the latter, then this whole dynamic is a Catch 22. They need to get fucked, but you can’t oblige because if you’re wrong, then you get fucked.
My sister had a classmate with politically oriented goals, including being a White House intern. Her senior year of high school, this classmate was invited to Washington — I think for Girls Nation — and met then-President Clinton. According to my sister, the classmate’s verdict on Mr. Clinton was “he’s gorgeous!”
Clinton may have abused his position of power to get some strange, but it a) is not an impeachable offense and b) not only meets the legal standard of consent, but Clinton probably did not have to apply any coercive or pressure tactics at all to get Monica to wet his cigar.
Troutwaxer, gender pronoun theory comes from second wave gay feminism. The fact the race-based intersectionalist Third Wave is now completely fused with the second wave doesn’t change that distinction. It’s origins are Jacques Derrida and J. L. Austin. It was Judith Butler who applied it to gender feminism around 1990. It was only later that Butler – for example in 2009 – said that is no feminism that is “not also anti-racism.” However there is absolutely none of that in her 1990 book Gender Trouble.
As for intersectionalism, it is not a question if it is possible to experience multiples vectors of oppression, but in how that idea is being used, to what purpose and by who. That is where simple research comes in. The people who originated that idea and who most push it to this day are routinely race-baiting anti-white ideologues. When Audre Lorde talks about the “gap of male ignorance,” that isn’t exactly hard science or pragmatism is it? It is group defamation and profiling. Intersectionality deserves the same scrutiny as plain racism does. In other words if there are no actual institutions or laws which are in play, intersectionalism doesn’t exist other than an anecdote and NOT systemically. Anti-white ideologue typically ignore the difference between an actual set of laws like Jim Crow and their absence, preferring to use terms like “power structures” but which have no definition and can predict nothing. Discrimination is a legal issue, not one of an unquantifiable number of individuals who may or may not exist. The Civil Rights and equal rights movements fought law; Third Wave Feminism fights “whiteness” and men/heterosexuality. It’s fake social science is a con game meant to mask sheer hatred.
As for “rape culture,” it is a myth used to defame men. It’s first use in print was in a 1974 book called Rape: the First Sourcebook for Women. That was published by the mad gay feminist Shulamith Firestone’s radical N. Y. collective. Firestone once wrote abolishing the taboo against incest seems like a good idea. The following year a colleague of many of these N. Y. gay feminists named Susan Brownmiller published Against Our Will, a history of rape in the past and in America. In that book Brownmiller wrote that criminal rapists act as “shock troops” for all men to keep women in fear and in line. Of course the idea all men despise women and want to keep them in a state of fear is typical of the paranoia and irrational suspicions of men which define the gay feminist movement, and to this day. “Rape culture” is a demonization theory meant to smear and defame all men. There is nothing to it. Feminists simply ignore the difference between men who are criminals and those who are not.
@Jeff Read: The impeachable offense was not the sex, but the lying about it under oath.
> Rape culture can be defined as a culture in which the practice of rape is approved of or encouraged, as defined above.
>
> Rape culture can also be defined within the feminist community as a culture which practices and encourages heterosexual sex (because heterosexual sex is always rape, because structural oppression and false consciousness negate any possible consent).
My impression of the usual definition among feminists is not this, but rather a culture in which rape is objectively encouraged, in the same vein as Orwell’s pacifists-are-objectively-pro-fascist argument.
And, yes, just as Orwell’s argument was an attack on freedom of speech and freedom of thought, the rape culture argument is an attack on innocent-until-proven-guilty and due process. But if you’re going to argue against it, argue against what it is, not what you would like it to be.
I just had to reply to this disgusting vile comment, this proves that people who believe in game are just crytpo feminists.
“Jeff Read on 2015-11-06 at 12:05:21 said:
Okay, so what would be the SJW code of conduct? Only women are allowed to initiate flirting? Only non-balding handsome men are allowed to initiate flirting?
Basically, uh, yes.
Among orangutans there are two types of males: flanged and unflanged. Flanged males are the dominant males; they have the two big flaps on the sides of their face. They are the orangutan equivalent of Terry Crews in the Old Spice commercials. They don’t have to do anything to attract female attention; they let out a loud booming mating call and the females come to them. Unflanged males have no such luck; they either have to strike out on their own and form a new troop, at which time their flanges will grow (flanges are secondary sex characteristics which are suppressed in subdominant males since if a flanged male encounters another flanged male he will attack); or they can sneak up on an unsuspecting female and force her into coitus.
Now, back to humans: if a woman observes a subdominant, low-SMV male showing obvious sexual interest, her prehistoric ape brain kicks in and raises the “rape imminent” alarm signal. You can be subdominant or you can be horny, but you can’t be both. Men who are both are called “creeps”.
The feminist angle comes into play when you realize that given the strength advantage men have over women, women live much more fear-filled lives than do men because they are surrounded by people who could do them grievous harm.
(Sound like a feminist apologizing for females being neurotic Women can do damage to men as well mangina. Women can use weapons or incite proxy violence against men.)
That makes women inherently unequal to men, and in order for feminist goals of equality to be met, HAS to change. So creeps (again any horny, subdominant male) are dealt with much more harshly in the past because women have the right to not live in fear of them and thus not encounter them.
(WTF? am I misreading you? Are you saying women have a right not to live in fear of low status males? WTF? )
The ONLY solution is to either stop being subdominant (work out, work on your grooming, develop a swagger) or stop being horny (“stick to video games” as I’ve heard it put). If you are not top-ranked in terms of your SMV, any interaction with women that suggests sexual interest will put you at risk. And if you are approached by women, either your SMV is high or you are being targeted for financial or other exploitation.”
(You are offering bullshit game advice, working out is not going to help. Also like any scumbag feminist you are calling men who are victims of false accusations smelly, also developing a swagger will make you look like a cock. You are a hyper macho idiot, who has bought into game bullshitl)
Rape culture doesn’t have a definition. This is not an unfortunate accident, but by design, and integral to its function. It’s a piece of nebulous rhetoric, intentionally conflating things which are untrue but borderline defensible, with claims that are either ridiculous or meaningless (in the literal sense; not merely wrong, but entirely vacuous). In use by its proponents, it is constantly reinterpreted, depending on whether they want to demonstrate its existence, maximize its emotional impact or legitimize draconian measures that make a mockery of justice.
Aside from that, your advice is sound, if not well intended. Ideally, you would take it yourself first, rather than argue against what people to you -seem to imply-, in stark contradiction to what they actually said and anything a sane individual would ever assume.
For reference, see – Random832 on 2015-11-06 at 12:17:55 – and – Jay Maynard on 2015-11-06 at 09:51:23 – .
“> Rape culture can be defined as a culture in which the practice of rape is approved of or encouraged, as defined above.”
That is an easy one. Just go to India. After the brutal gang rape and murder of a student in a bus, I saw elderly women on TV squarely blaming the victim. To be more precise, in most of India, high caste men have a moral right to rape low caste women. Any low caste woman, any time.
Also nice places are Japan and Thailand where the subways have to reserve special carriages for women to protect them.
That is real “rape culture”.
@Random832 I find it rather rich to suggest that Orwell was anti-freedom of speech and anti-thought. I read many of his writings every few years, and I have never come across anything that suggested that Orwell felt that curtailing speech or thought was justifiable. But that doesn’t mean he had to agree with all speech and all thought.
You are quite right in saying that he believed that anti-anti-Fascism was effectively pro-Fascist. He was, as evidence has increasingly shown us, absolutely correct in that view (though in more modern history, we’d be talking about the anti-anti-Communists – indeed, ESR spoke of this when he blogged about Gramscian damage). But in order for Orwell to have been anti-free speech or anti-thought you’d have to show that he espoused criminalizing that speech and/or those thoughts. Good luck with that.
And here are the links:
India’s Caste Culture is a Rape Culture
http://www.thedailybeast.com/witw/articles/2014/06/09/india-s-caste-culture-is-a-rape-culture.html
Women-only carriages halt Tokyo gropers
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/may/10/japan.justinmccurry
Women Only Public Transport In Japan, Malaysia And Other Countries Spares Women Harassment
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/26/women-only-public-transport-jeremy-corbyn_n_8043506.html
> The idiot then claims that females get a rape alarm if a low status male hits on them. Instead of seeing women acting alarmed as a false threat narrative used to bully low status men, the gamester believes that the female distress is real.
These two possibilities are not mutually exclusive. It can be true that many females have a genuine, generalized fear of low-ranking men, _and_ that this fear is used as a bogeyman to push misandrist narratives when doing so is politically convenient. Compare whites vs. the fear of criminal behavior from minority groups.
@ Winter
Most everyone on this board would agree with your assessment that that form of social acquiescence of rape is wrong and should be opposed. If feminists in the US really wanted to draw attention to this problem and make a dent in it, they had the perfect opportunity to do so with Bill Clinton and his violent rape of Juanita Broderick. When you take down one of your own, it sends a clear message that it really is about the crime and not the politics. That they instead gave him a pass gives lie to their rhetoric and reveals their true motives. Same is true for Ted Kennedy’s negligent homicide of Mary Jo Kopechne. It’s hard to take feminism seriously when the hypocrisy is so brazen.
@TomA
“Most everyone on this board would agree with your assessment that that form of social acquiescence of rape is wrong and should be opposed. ”
My point was that no one has a reason to fight a “rape culture” in the US. That might have been the case in the past (e.g., before, and after, the abolition of slavery). It is horrible that powerful men still can get away with it. But that has to do with the nature of power itself, only solved by reducing the power instilled in some individuals.
Wrt the Clinton case(s), the behavior of his political opponents has made it all but impossible to get a clear view of what has happened. Maybe we will eventually get a “Cosby moment” for Bill, maybe not. I will not hold my breath.
@Jeff Read: ‘and met then-President Clinton. According to my sister, the classmate’s verdict on Mr. Clinton was “he’s gorgeous!”’ … “but Clinton probably did not have to apply any coercive or pressure tactics at all to get Monica to wet his cigar.”
You don’t make it to a position as powerful as POTUS unless you have a hell of a lot of charm. I think a lot of men – especially the ones who bitch & moan about women in discussions like this one, or one MRA/MGTOW fora – don’t realise just how much more attractive charm is than looks to most women. Look at men like Spiro Agnew & Einstein, neither of whom were in any way good looking, yet had no shortage of women in their lives. No doubt these same guys will claim that that’s due to their money & power, rather than charm, but I’ve known many conventionally unattractive men in real life with nether money or power who’re equally popular with women. In my own life, I’ve consistently found that the times when I’ve been girl-poison have been when I’ve been I’ve been whiny & bitter, which tends to show, no matter how hard you try to conceal it.
Charm or not, feminists claim rape and harassment is all rooted in power imbalances, and there is no imbalance on the planet quite like POTUS vs. an intern. So if you take feminism at its word the way Fortune 500 HR departments do, Clinton was wrong on first principles. Any CEO or even middle manager caught in a similar situation would’ve been fired first and had questions asked later.
>So if you take feminism at its word the way Fortune 500 HR departments do, Clinton was wrong on first principles
Indeed. While I remain sympathetic with the theoretical goals of equity feminism, the Lewinsky scandal is when feminism as a political movement lost me. I just couldn’t stomach the hypocrisy – after all that high-minded talk about exploitation and power imbalances, not one major feminist thought leader or organization stood up to speak the obvious.
What, after that, could I say against the conservative charge that it was all a shuck, a pretext for a toxic brew of Marxism and man-hatred? Especially since the third-wave feminism then emerging seemed hell-bent on reifying exactly that.
Anonymous: Rape culture doesn’t have a definition. This is not an unfortunate accident, but by design, and integral to its function. It’s a piece of nebulous rhetoric, intentionally conflating things which are untrue but borderline defensible, with claims that are either ridiculous or meaningless (in the literal sense; not merely wrong, but entirely vacuous). In use by its proponents, it is constantly reinterpreted, depending on whether they want to demonstrate its existence, maximize its emotional impact or legitimize draconian measures that make a mockery of justice.
Precisely. With rules changing randomly and on a whim, there will always be an over supply of scapegoats unaware of what they have actually done wrong to hang in public gibbets for the masses to revile and gloat over.
What’s more important is the choice of wording. “Rape culture” is designed to maximize the state of terror at some amorphous, mythological, universal PatriarchalConspiracy™ who’s only goal is to subordinate women, exploit them, abuse them, degrade them to satisfy filthy sexual lusts and assault and/or murder them on a whim. In essence, those that drive the concept are no different to primitive witch doctors conjuring demons to explain noises beyond the light of the campfire to terrify their tribes into subordination to them.
The real purpose of the choice of wording is twofold –
1) To use this fear to justify collective guilt of an entire demographic – the white male. Rarely, if ever are these fears directed at non-whites (and in fact, these fembot witch doctors don’t ever give a rats ass about what could be framed as actual “rape culture” – ISIS, African war zones etc.), and –
2) Once this state of collective guilt is attained (which it has if you look at some of the commentors here), this guilt can then be used to demand collective punishments – which is precisely what is happening now if you look at the abuse of Title IX across all US campuses.
These are the new witch trials of the new Dark Age that the fembot neo-puritans wish to impose on us all – the evidence is there. They are anti-sex, that’s a given, but they are also anti-science, anti-fair trial, anti-fun and just anti-reality altogether. They peddle a new secular system of superstition – and dumb shmuck “moderates” everywhere enable it because they are too lily livered to risk hurting feefees. They’re quite happy to forfeit all their rights and freedoms for the sake of “sensitivity”. This is where we are.
I hope the author gets the attention that he so craves. Anyone believing the “reliable friend” crap is delusional, and needs to back away from the console. All a woman has to do is walk by one of these horndogs and they get flustered. They “trap” themselves in their standard male-victim fantasy. Smh…
tamerlame, you’re right about one thing: game douchebags and feminists are almost duals of one another.
I’m saying this is what feminists actually believe. They believe they shouldn’t have to live in fear (and they shouldn’t!) but today’s crop of Tumblr-weaned radfems also believe they shouldn’t have to do anything to afford their own protection; therefore, they shouldn’t have to encounter a randy subdominant at all.
Gamesters get a few things right. Their techniques are ruthlessly optimized for one goal: getting one’s foot in the door. Or more specifically: one’s tab in the slot, since “success is defined by penis in vagina”. They could give two fucks about tending to a woman’s long-term emotional needs or even recognizing that women are humans and thus more than their ape-brains. But think of it: if you operate in ape-brain space yourself, you’re going to have the ape-brain stuff down pat. Working out and giving outward signs of confidence are like the flanges on the orangutan: they will increase the odds that women will initiate attention with you, even if that’s all they do.
@franc
>These are the new witch trials of the new Dark Age that the fembot neo-puritans wish to impose on us all
But I would ask then how did the (Salem) witch trials end? Simply that the accusers started accusing the unimpeachable, and wiser heads prevailed when it was realized that it was not only the fungible, disposable cannon fodder that was to swing from the giblet, but men of substance were accused by these silly girls. It was when honorable men like Giles Corey refused to genuflect to the nonsense and died rather than take the nonsense. It was when some preachers and writers such as Thomas Maule who were brave enough to risk the accusations to speak the truth that things really changed.
Nobody is going to die here. However, I have to say I wonder if running into the corner and hiding from this is the right solution. Surely the answer to bullies is to stand up to them, to mock them, to let them do their worse and then ridicule them for their ridiculousness. These people have taken all the great Universities of America and turned them into micro totalitarian states. Don’t we all feel an obligation to fight them, to say this far and no further?
Of course it is easy for me to say, a white female who is in no significant danger of life destruction, but I’d suggest that bravery and boldness is required from the leaders of the OSS movement on this matter, not hiding from the gnashing teeth of the loud and cowardly bullies. Whether that bravery takes the form of Giles Corey and hazarding that which is verboten, or the form of Thomas Maule in calling the accusations against others for the actual bullshit they are.
@ Winter – ‘a “Cosby moment” for Bill’
It has already occurred. Juanita Broderick told her story in excruciating detail on national television and provided additional corroboration via other interviews and writing. As with the Cosby episode, her story resonates with similar incidents and accounts by many other women. The evidence for Clinton’s predatory behavior and criminal conduct is several orders of magnitude greater than the trumped up nonsense that enabled the recent crucifixion of Tim Hunt.
If feminists were genuinely reasonable, then they would not hide from this black mark in their history. As such, when you have this level of hypocrisy and denial, there really isn’t much common ground for discussion. Rather, it is rational for us to presume that they are psychotic.
@Jessica: The difference here is that the media chooses who is unimpeachable and who they will subject to the inquisition until fired. Clinton was unimpeachable despite being actually guilty of sex by power imbalance (if not actual provable rape); by comparison anyone in the tech industry is assumed to be a dew-drinking brogrammer sending dick pics to attractive female interns who just wanted
someone to do their homework for themmentoring.Any accusation not immediately refuted is going to end up validating the problem to the general public. The way to destroy the credibility of the accusers is to demonstrate their accusations to be (literally) incredible. We’re not going to get someone considered unimpeachable to stand up for us, because the only people considered unimpeachable are those actually guilty and who stand to benefit from the witch hunt.
>Only if the woman is either poorly-socialized or drunk enough to respond to a non-standard mating strategy.
Well yes. But that describes an awful lot of young women these days.
Someone with a certain type of mind and a lot of courage (because whatever they publish, mobs will want to set them on fire) should study exactly how the mating script has changed in the modern era of hookup culture.
I suspect Eric’s head would explode. And my last real exposure to the mating game was in the bar and club scene in Boston in the 90’s.
>Rather, it is rational for us to presume that they are psychotic.
Or deeply, utterly, irretrievably dishonest.
> >Rather, it is rational for us to presume that they are psychotic.
> Or deeply, utterly, irretrievably dishonest.
There’s any distinction?
From J. C. Solomon>
> There are only two kinds of minds so disturbed that they actually believe this about modern Western societies: SJWs and some small fraction of rapists.
The religious background of many Western civilizations were founded with rape as a moral given. If you reference the Bible for Christrian cultures, there’s Judges 21, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20, 21, and , and the list just goes on.
Prison rape in America is accepted by many as a “fact-of-life”, and even an expected consequence of prison time by many. Marital rape, while now explicitly illegal in all 50 US, was not considered illegal in any US state until the 1970’s: there were specific or court precedent supported exemptions in various state rape laws until then.
Eric, you’re getting some real nutjobs on your side here. I hope it’s making you question the wisdom and stance of your using a vague “anonymous source”, with no specific incidents, to smear the Ada Initiative.
@Nico: I will begin by pointing out that the most recent of your examples are from 40 years ago, and prison rape is not “accepted” so much as acknowledged as unpreventable — just as prisoners smuggling in weapons and drugs is not accepted but acknowledged as unpreventable.
Since I’m not religious I’m not going to defend the bible, except to note that as history, those events are thousands of years old and as doctrine they are superseded by the new testament; you would not find any significant cultural segment subscribing to them today.
“Eric, you’re getting some real nutjobs on your side here.”
“Ideas are not responsible for those who believe them. There is no idea so good you won’t find a fool who backs it.” — Larry Niven
@Nico: I think it’s safe to say that no Christian scholar or cleric of any note, and no sane Christian, believes that the Bible authorizes rape. Your examples are from the Old Testament, which is largely superseded by the New, and the Bible is subject to a great deal of interpretation (rarely in a pro-rape direction).
On the other hand, the Koran is quite explicit that keeping women as sex slaves is fine. Mohammad was the perfect man, and he did it and recommended it, and the Koran is the perfect word of Allah, who speaks archaic Arabic and has the master copy of the Koran in heaven with him.
Even accepting for the sake of argument the existence of a rape culture in prisons, that says nothing about the existence of rape culture in larger Western society. And it’s rarely prisons that feminists talk about when they talk about rape culture. There probably are some non-institutional subcultures in the West where rape culture exists. When these are exposed to members of the mainstream culture, the members of the mainstream culture react with shock and outrage, which is not what you’d expect if rape culture existed in the mainstream.
You can see this exactly with the Sabrina Erdely case. She wrote an article claiming (with much supporting detail) a rape culture existed in frat subculture at the University of Virginia. And people were shocked and horrified… at least until it was all shown to be a lie. If rape was excused or condoned among US culture as a whole, the original article would have been “dog bites man”.
‘I hope it’s making you question the wisdom and stance of your using a vague “anonymous source”’
There is nothing “vague” or “anonymous” about it — esr has said, repeatedly, that he knows the source and finds him credible.
He has information on which to make a judgement call. You don’t.
This is one case where interpreting a historical text out of its historical and cultural context is downright dishonest. In the ancient Near East, a woman who had sex before marriage became unmarriageable, which meant that her social standing was destroyed and her very economic survivability was in danger. The Jewish law was a sort of “you break it, you bought it”, requiring the offender to provide the woman with the support that he’d prevented her from being able to get from another husband.
Note in particular, that this doesn’t just apply to the ancient Near East: Women in Islamic countries are routinely murdered today by their own families for having been raped. As a delta, there’s a colorable argument that the Jewish law would be an improvement in these societies in 2015.
There is no such thing as rape culture in America. It is nothing more than a childish smear without an ounce of fact to back it up. Third Wave Feminism is big on assertions about “unconscious” racism, sexism and general bigotry. Amazingly, non-whites, women and homosexuals never experience this failing. Radical feminism’s arguments are circular and self-sealing. They ignore logic, reason and facts. Their entire moral ethos is wedged into identity, not actions. The straight, the white and the heterosexual are bad; end of story. There’s your “fact.” The fact so many Americans succumb to this idiocy should trouble everyone.
>Rather, it is rational for us to presume that they are psychotic.
>Or deeply, utterly, irretrievably dishonest.
Which is rather a problem when you contemplate having to try and form a civil society that includes them in the population. When you have a group of people who treat the civil contract like a hudna (Islamic law defined treaty with infidels which is designed to allow Islam to build up strength for the kill) and boast about it, how can you live with them?
Let’s see, who should I believe? a drive by troll who’s proclaimed himself a member of an ideology based on dishonesty, or esr, who has a track record for both honesty and competence?
You lose, Stevie.
“The religious background of many Western civilizations were founded with rape as a moral given. If you reference the Bible for Christrian cultures, there’s Judges 21, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20, 21, and , and the list just goes on. ”
Except that a) none of your cites are from the New Testament, which lays out the basis for Christianity and b) in Acts, we were told specifically that we weren’t bound by the Old Testament practices.
I so love watching anti-theists trying to tell me what the cardboard cutout religion in their head says about me.
@ Nico Kadel-Garcia – “you’re getting some real nutjobs on your side here”
Could you be more specific with your admonition? Who (and what comments) do you regard as nutjob worthy? I think that there have been many cogent and convincing arguments put forth in this post (in addition to some venting).
For example, I have pointed out that when Bill Clinton was outed for committing a brutal rape, a righteous feminism movement would have organized a million woman march on Washington DC and pitched a fit until he resigned. But they gave him a pass instead. Conversely, Tim Hunt makes a few humorous remarks (which BTW were largely received as such) at a conference and is then vilified and hounded out of a job.
Perhaps you regard this disparity as justified, and critics such as myself as a nutjob. What kind of world is this in which people like me defend women against real rape and people like you castigate us as nutjobs because we think what happened to Tim Hunt is seriously wrong also.
What would the Bible have to do with whether there has ever been a rape culture in America? In all of the popular entertainment media in the history of America, has rape ever been considered necessary, noble or okay as a trend or genre? Instead of heroes rescuing women wouldn’t they be raping them or joining the kidnappers? Did Tarzan or Superman ever rape anyone or even muse on it? Even Conan – who was a self-admitted reaver and barbarian – didn’t rape women.
This reminds me of people who say America is a white supremacy. Wouldn’t college hockey be March Madness instead of an overwhelmingly black basketball tournament? Wouldn’t Payton Manning and Tom Brady be the two most popular athletes instead of Lebron and the decade-retired Michael Jordan? What about Serena Williams on the women’s side? Wouldn’t it some Russian babe who looks like a winner but isn’t? I don’t know what world feminists live in but it seems to be a paranoia culture.
@James May
> In all of the popular entertainment media in the history of America,
> has rape ever been considered necessary, noble or okay as a trend
> or genre?
This is where the “rape culture” term falls down, because this is not actually what it’s talking about. In terms of modern media, it’s referring primarily to the supposed prevalence of rape and sexual violence against women being used as a cheap dramatic tool. In the worst cases, the violence is glorified in the way that everything tends to get glorified in our mass media. “Rape culture” is a stupid, stupid term to use to talk about this, for reasons already covered by folks above. See also the “male gaze” which at its core has some legitimate points, but too often goes off the rails.
The smart and honest ones are explicit about focusing on these ideas as an artistic criticism rather than generalizing to society as a whole. There’s depressingly few who do this, though.
Jay:
No, the difference between “terms of art” in feminist studies and in software engineering is that in the latter there exists a general definition that most people can agree on, not some motte and bailey bullshit.
Just about everyone reading this could spit out a general definition of “race condition” and the general disagreement would be on PRECISE wording.
Rape Culture is like “Cloud”. It means, well, the bit from Lewis Carroll is apropos here:
@jsk: I’m noticing that everyone, including the SJW-types, seems to have a different definition of rape culture. The whole point of the term is that it can shift definitions at need. And the “male gaze” is even worse. What, are men not allowed to look at women now? Is it somehow oppressive to look at someone? Wouldn’t we be oppressing each other all the time if that was true?
TriggerFinger:
@WilliamOBlivion:
> > There are a couple problems with this. Let’s start with your example.
Not in this case there aren’t. It was purely intended as an example that there *are* men out there who are UTTERLY out of touch with how to deal with women.
> First, the guy who did it was fired. Appropriate response to personal misbehavior.
> Second, it was “porn”, not a dick-pic. (Granted, not all that different). Third, if he thinks that
The only difference is “This is what I want to do with you” and “this is what I want to do it with”.
Besides sexting/genitalia pics are A Thing now.
> behavior would get him a date, it can’t be sent anonymously.
It’s not whether it REALLY can, it’s whether the sender THINKS it can. We’re not dealing with well adjusted psyches here. And it very well *could* get him a date if the target was interested.
All it has to say is “I would like to do this with you” and include a clip/picture/video, and to be close enough to judge the reaction (assuming such a person is capable of judging emotional/mind states of others).
Look, we’re not talking about *sane* people here.
> Fourth, I don’t deny that that sort of bullshit happens *ever*, but it has never happened
> in my experience to anyone I know, nor has anyone I know mentioned it happening
A company I was working for at the same time fired it’s receptionist for having a picture of a dildo as their computer’s wallpaper. Everyone knew he was gay, but some things just aren’t acceptable.
That doesn’t make the news either.
> in any context outside of “I saw this story on the news”.
I think cases like the one at my wife’s company are rather rare.
OTOH, I’ve had to suggest to a manager that he discuss with another cow-orker about watching porn in his cube. It was after work, but still. He didn’t get fired because I had no desire to push the issue and there was no one else who saw it. Oh, and we’d laid off all of HR and it was the CEOs wife who was doing that work. We suspect she’d danced on more than one pole in her past.
> Now, back to the hypothetical dick-pic: if you sent it anonymously, how does she know
> one of her coworkers sent it?
There are a lot of things people “know” on scant evidence.
Especially if they’re grievance mongering.
> Could easily be random spam, and if it is anonymous, it’s not going to be
> getting anyone a date.
See above.
Also google “sexting”. Apparently it’s A Thing amongst the lower classes these days[1].
> If it’s a true dick-pic (ie, a selfie) then the list of suspects can be narrowed down
Well, it would be a short list… (sorry)
> considerably from that. While it’s true that there are online anonymity systems that
> work reasonably well (against anyone who doesn’t have the resources of the
> NSA at least),
There are even simpler measures that would work against the resources of a reasonably sophisticated police department. Simply create a mail.ru (or whatever) account from a Starbucks. Then pull up behind a hotel with a open wifi and use that mail.ru account to open a webmail account in some third country. Then on the next trip to some random restaurant with an open wifi hit a open VPN and do whatever. Set the Reply To: to be a mail to usenet gateway.
And no, that’s not “true” anonymity. But for a one time shot (no pun intended) it’s both more work than it’s worth (IMO), and a lot harder to unwrap.
The cypherpunks remailers were designed to allow two people known to each other to carry on a conversation, not deliver a one-shot message.
> when you start with a narrow list of suspects (the dew-drinking brogrammers) and
> set out to try to narrow it down to one of them, AND throw in a company’s HR
> investigation into it, I doubt anonymity could be successfully preserved even if one
> of those services was used.
Depends on the motivation of the person sending the pic. If the person doing it has decided that he’s going to harass the woman out of a job then you’re dealing with someone who wouldn’t sweat an HR visit at all, and his unlikely to have sent a picture of HIS genitalia.
If he was just trying to embarrass her, then yeah it would probably have gotten him fired.
> And I wouldn’t bet on someone stupid enough to send a dick-pic to a coworker would
> be smart enough to use an anonymizer, as your example itself demonstrates.
In the case of my example they weren’t dealing with an idiot, but someone who was mentally ill. These are different things.
> Email anonymity is harder than most people think.
You only think that because you assume TLAs as attackers. Consider the Palo Alto PD. Technically marginal and resource constrained. Can they get a warrant on an email server in Belarus?
Google “send anonymous email”.
You really think the local police will expend all that much effort tracking down a dirty picture for a *single* event.
[1] True Scotsman. Anyone who engages in that sort of behavior is lower class.
jsk:
> This is where the “rape culture” term falls down, because this is not actually what it’s
> talking about. In terms of modern media, it’s referring primarily to the supposed prevalence
> of rape and sexual violence against women being used as a cheap dramatic tool.
Google calls BS:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what+is+rape+culture
In the worst cases, the violence is glorified in the way that everything tends to get glorified in our mass media. “Rape culture” is a stupid, stupid term to use to talk about this, for reasons already covered by folks above. See also the “male gaze” which at its core has some legitimate points, but too often goes off the rails.
Hahaha, look at all these turbonerd losers flipping their shit over something blatantly fake. Your butthurt is delicious.
@TriggerFinger
I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered “male gaze” as a term outside of art/media criticism. My understanding of it makes it practically meaningless elsewhere, which is essentially the concept of compositions depicting women being created only by/for male viewers to exclusion.
It used to be a more useful concept in film, say, twenty-plus years ago. These days film has become much more egalitarian in this respect, which is nice.
The current battlefield is of course video games, which as an art form is in its growing-up phase and still figuring out that not everyone is a horny teenage boy. Things there are rapidly improving too, in many ways thanks to the indie games world, which is a pretty lovely exemplification of “the solution to speech you don’t like is more speech, not less.”
@William O. B’livion
That matches my understanding of the term in the broader sense. When it’s used as media criticism it (in my experience) most matches the form I used, specifically in context of the second part of your linked definition (normalizing male sexual violence).
Which is why I say it’s a stupid term; it’s too broad and vague to use in the specific ways it tends to get used and makes honest debate difficult if not impossible even if the side using it isn’t one of the crazies. The results are all the things that’ve been discussed by everyone above.
—
I have a response to TriggerFinger awaiting moderation…
Stevie on 2015-11-08 at 10:41:36 said:
I hope the author gets the attention that he so craves. Anyone believing the “reliable friend” crap is delusional, and needs to back away from the console. All a woman has to do is walk by one of these horndogs and they get flustered. They “trap” themselves in their standard male-victim fantasy. Smh…
Meanwhile, “Listen and Believe” is the mantra on the SJW side of the fence and you find that perfectly acceptable… How does your brain not explode?
Jessica Boxer on 2015-11-08 at 11:29:49 said:
Nobody is going to die here. However, I have to say I wonder if running into the corner and hiding from this is the right solution. Surely the answer to bullies is to stand up to them, to mock them, to let them do their worse and then ridicule them for their ridiculousness.
And that is what folks have been doing all along. “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions”, as my mate Thommo told me up the pub.
SJW response? Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson et al. not only shutdown comments on their Youtube channels, but disable voting as well. Blog portals like freethoughtblogs impose ridiculously complex sign ups to comment and moderate/ban all unorthodoxy with a sledgehammer, and if that’s not enough to discourage deviates, tamper/edit your personally signed comments to say absurd things or even make them appear as threats.
And the latest? An SJW drive to ban comment sections everywhere altogether to stop all troublesome opinion. From The Guardian, now a fully owned SJW propaganda mouthpiece –
http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/sep/12/comment-sections-toxic-moderation
So, any other suggestions?
Nobody may be losing their lives -yet – but they are certainly losing their livelihoods.
And it’s not hard to find many central figures in anti-GamerGate/gawker/salon who are actively campaigning to strip more people of their livelihoods. I’ve recently seen calls to have DHS take kids away based on wrong thought.
> I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered “male gaze” as a term outside of art/media criticism. My understanding of it makes it practically meaningless elsewhere, which is essentially the concept of compositions depicting women being created only by/for male viewers to exclusion.
Well – so what’s wrong about creating something for men to view and enjoy in a way women may not?
franc, if Stevie’s brain were turned to anti-matter, the explosion wouldn’t blow a gnat’s nose.
@Dgarsys
> Well – so what’s wrong about creating something for men to view and
> enjoy in a way women may not?
Nothing. Note the additional qualifier: “to exclusion.” I’ve found that a common mistake on the anti side is to read the criticisms as “more X, less Y” when it should be read as “more X _and_ Y.” This is the standard, sane type of feminism. It’s not zero sum.
Of course, the crazies don’t think that way, and the fascist-types want to make it mandatory. They should be fought with everything we’ve got, on both sides.
@William, I think the only sane way to respond to your message is to point out that, if your anecdotes are true, you work in a remarkably unprofessional and unusual environment, and you should probably consider carefully whether any of your coworkers escaped from a Bond movie.
Oh, one other point.
The set of people who are:
* Smart enough to achieve true email anonymity
* Willing to put in the effort to achieve true email anonymity
* Want to send an anonymous dick-pic to a coworker despite
* Knowing it won’t get them a date (because anonymous)
* Knowing it might get them fired
* Stupid enough to think that sending a dick-pic to a coworker will make the coworker quit out of frustration rather than get him fired for sexual harassment
* and still stupid enough to send the thing
… is probably very small and not really a widespread social problem. Though perhaps in your area that’s different. Do you work in government by any chance? It seems to me that I see a news story about someone in government work NOT getting fired or disciplined for watching porn at work every few months. But that’s the only place.
Inappropriate background images and after-hours porn (without intending to share it) are more believable, but still doesn’t really strike me as a serious societal problem. Deal with it when it comes up, which should be rarely. And if the CEO’s wife was doing HR duties with the qualifications you suggest, I think that proves the point about an unprofessional environment in which these things are taking place…
Dgarsys on 2015-11-08 at 21:29:41 said:
Nobody may be losing their lives – yet – but they are certainly losing their livelihoods.
Give it time. A few more SWATings and it’ll probably bear fruit.
Who wants to play “spot the 10 differences” on feminism: now and then…
https://youtu.be/uuIkWL9blpo
esr: expect your white feather any time now, you might wanna have a nice top hat handy so you can display it with pride!
;}
@aaron – the other thing that is erased from the popular hagiography of the Suffragettes / First wavers is that they were instrumental in imposing The Prohibition. They are the best thing to have ever happened to the Mafia.
@Jeff Read
>If to know what a MOTAS is or is not open to, you need some sort of visual indicator, then you lack the social wherewithal to be a dominant flanged male and are AUTOMATICALLY a creep; no woman should ever have to deal with you.
Are you saying “feminism is a fitness test” and “women are the most responsible teenager in the house” (both are direct quotes from RP sites, fitness tests often called shit tests though) ? The problem here is, if it was seriously true that some humans are unable to function like adults: getting conscious of their own desires, expressing them clearly and bargaining for them openly, which is a basic requirement for functional adulthood because if a child wants to buy apples on the farmers market but keeps saying oranges he will be asked to go home and send his mom instead really fast, do they even deserve to be free and equal? As feminism is ostensibly aimed at that, this case supporting it would be as silly as supporting some kind of a movement to give the vote and full adult rights to teenagers. I think we all can agree that teenagers or children should have full rights to be protected from harm but not full rights to execute _autonomy_ (benevolent “parentarchy”) and in that case if it was really true that women are natural minors feminism would have to give up the idea of autonomy and equality as well and accept some kind of a benevolent patriarchy. But it is not happening and you still support it.
Note: somehow all the women I know are actually better than this. Maybe feminism, at least its third wave, attracts unusually immature thinking women. And that would be even something to expected. Imagine a “third-wavy” Nerd Rights movement which would be no longer about actual rights but about arguing how mainstream movies should represent more nerds and portay them as a more high status. You think it would attract the worst kinds of nerds?… Would the rest of the nerds just tell them fsck just either accept what you or are improve and be a good example and influence society that way, but stop whining about how mainstream movies are responsible for your insecurities?
@jsk: [“Rape Culture”] “In terms of modern media, it’s referring primarily to the supposed prevalence of rape and sexual violence against women being used as a cheap dramatic tool.”
No, that’s not the case. That’s very much a thing, though, viz:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama
The term “Rape Culture” can be most easily summarised as a culture in which people who’re sexually assaulted are, by default, considered to be wholly or partially responsible (“what did she expect when she had drinks at his place?”) for the crime, rather than putting all the blame on the attacker, where it belongs. Ironically, male victims of sexual assault are even more likely to suffer from this, especially if the perp is a woman, because it’s ‘manly’ to have sex with a woman, whether the man wants it or not. “Lucky guy! – I wish women would rape me!”
> The term “Rape Culture” can be most easily summarised as a culture in which people who’re sexually assaulted are, by default, considered to be wholly or partially responsible (“what did she expect when she had drinks at his place?”) for the crime
Does this mean that we have a “theft culture” because we encourage folks to keep their homes and cars locked? (You could argue that we do, since there _are_ small, tightly-knit communities where theft is largely unheard of and folks don’t have to worry about locking their stuff. But outside these communities, “teaching men not to steal” is a bit of a utopian pipe dream.)
@Nop it is a tired trope really – most intelligent people realize there is such a thing as a different “moral blame” and “stupid blame” and you can give 100% “moral blame” to the attacker and some “stupid blame” still to the victim. You just sound like parroting a prerecorded message really, there is nothing original about this. Nor true, it was debunked the same way as I did not long ago. I remember writing the exact same reply around 2008 on discussion boards.
The issue is that your side really loves moral outrages – it is a psychological addiction, tracked by Reaction back to 16-18th century Puritan cultures, as your side is basically manufactured by Harvard which used to manufacture Puritan preachers. So there is this certain thing of loving getting on a moral high horse and screaming “you are cruel” to someone and “victim blaming” is just an ideal way to do that. The root cause is that morality is a social prestige mechanism, you get to feel high status if you condemn others.
But anyone with actually utilitarian ethnics instead of moralizing prestige games would basically first throw the burglar in prison with moral blame, then still put some stupid blame on the guy who neglected to lock his house and give him a lecture about safety. In fact, he would be more likely to give the second lecture only, because there is little point in trying to rehabilitate or argue with criminals – crime is fun, and everybody who does not have an inner moral compass will not be talked out of fun. Maybe, scared out of it, that can work. But one can always talk to non-criminals and change their minds. As being a victim is clearly no fun, people can be talked into behaving safer. This would be what an utilitarian who does not care about social prestige but only aggregate utility would do.
Ultimately, if you think really deep into, blame is something better reserved for non-criminals, as blame is something is supposed to change one’s mind. And that is pointless to do with criminals. When a pit bull maims a child, I don’t put blame on the pit bull. I just shoot it. It is just being what it is, and you can punish or end the threat without moralizing. The blame is on the owner or on the childs parent or guardian or teacher.
Blame also very much looks like a different form of the same social prestige game being played. You guys on the left consider everything part of it, so basically you are asking “why are you trying to lower the prestige / status of the poor victim?” and then what people on the right mean is “we don’t give a flying fuck about status and prestige, we are just trying to make people safer”.
Really, you can use it to test your own psychology. If you care too much about blame, you probably care too much about prestige and status.
@guest: “Does this mean that we have a “theft culture” because we encourage folks to keep their homes and cars locked?”
Someone’s genitalia aren’t a home or a car. They aren’t something you can lock up. And before anyone says: “Well, you can stay home after dark”, people get sexually assaulted at home, too. And besides, that’s the Taliban attitude, which a) I really hope that nobody on this blog wishes to emulate, & b) doesn’t work anyway, as can be seen by the horrifying frequency with which women are stoned to death in fundamentalist 3rd world countries for ‘letting’ themselves be raped in their family home – despite their burkas.
Nop, y’know, this might be relevant _if_ we stoned people to death in the West for getting their stuff stolen. Which we don’t, so why even raise that point? The whole point of this discussion is that Western institutions and social norms are different from Taliban ones in readily verifiable ways. This is what makes the “rape culture” meme not applicable in the first place.
> “The term “Rape Culture” can be most easily summarised as a culture in which people who’re sexually assaulted are, by default, considered to be wholly or partially responsible (“what did she expect when she had drinks at his place?”) for the crime, rather than putting all the blame on the attacker, where it belongs.”
At the local airport where I used to live, there were signs warning against leaving your valuables visible in the car, but I wouldn’t for a moment consider this a manifestation of a “Theft Culture” despite it putting some responsibility on the victim to avoid being victimized. Please don’t conflate responsibility/blame with *punishment* – all punishment should go to the attacker, but given the existence of thieves, rapists, and a generally non-Edenic society, it is right and reasonable to tell the general public that they can take some responsibility or lose some sympathy for their suffering.
Moreover, there’s a particular problem with ambiguous crimes like rape where the increasing prevalence and acceptance of drunken sex, sex out of wedlock, and BDSM; the invention of marital rape, stop policing victim behavior, etc. have led to a situation where there’s a confusing pair of equivocations going on: the only form of illicit sex is rape, and determining rape-or-not is a matter of mental state at the time. Since mental state is /damn/ hard to determine secondhand in retrospect by third parties, I sympathize with third parties unwilling to draw completely one-sided conclusions on thin evidence, /particularly/ if they’ve encountered some of the zanier activism for lowering the threshhold of what constitutes rape, e.g. “sex while inebriated”. Definitely some blame all around there, considering how many people get drunk as part of their attempted mating habits.
Said activism is also working at cross purposes to the other form of activism re the supposed rape culture: that trying to lower the moral standing of rape, demanding harsher punishments and omnipresent countermeasures. Everything is rape, also rape is the worst thing in the world and should be punished with arbitrary harshness – one of these two has got to give if you don’t want to wind up in a state like the Soviet Russia joke. “How long are you in for?” “Two years.” “For what?” “Nothing.” “Liar – for nothing you get four years.”
@guest: “Nop, y’know, this might be relevant _if_ we stoned people to death in the West for getting their stuff stolen. Which we don’t, so why even raise that point? The whole point of this discussion is that Western institutions and social norms are different from Taliban ones in readily verifiable ways. This is what makes the “rape culture” meme not applicable in the first place.”
Except that the way we treat rape victims in most of the west is different from the way they’re treated in 3rd world countries is primarily different in degree, rather than in kind. First world judges still sometimes let rapists of literally preteen girls avoid custodial sentences* because they felt that the victim was a ‘bad’ girl who knew what she was doing, etc. And again, young boys get the “Good for you, tiger!” treatment, even from their own family, regardless of whether did or even could have consented to sex with someone bigger & stronger than them**. Both the cases I’ve linked to are of 11 YO children who were raped by adults, & neither were jailed:
* http://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/outrage-follows-after-judge-sentences-child-rapist-to-probation
** http://kfor.com/2015/10/05/dad-defends-babysitter-who-had-sex-with-his-11-year-old-son/
Eric made a comment about criminal charges of rape being complicated by ambiguities of consent, and here’s Nop bringing up statutory rape. Did you know that there are states where someone can rape* a seventeen-year-old girl and—just because it was “consensual”, and because that state wickedly sets the age of consent lower than 18—the law will completely ignore this case. Fight Rape Culture: set the age of consent to 36! /sarc
* word deliberately chosen to be provocative.
Eric’s point about the difficulties in assessing mental states applies perfectly to statutory rape. Obviously there are many people who, for reasons of immaturity, cannot meaningfully give consent to sexual activity; sex with them is inherently rape. But lacking a meaningful way to measure this on a case-by-case basis, and lacking an obvious Schelling point, the law is of necessity arbitrary. So is it wrong for a judge (or jury) to decide that in a particular instance the legal minor was sufficiently mature to have meaningfully consented, and therefore not to apply the full penalty of the law?
(Yes, sure: judges are human and easily swayed and therefore capable of horribly bad decisions. But strict rules are inhuman and inflexible and are therefore capable of horribly worse outcomes.)
@Nop: So your best examples of “rape culture” in the West are 1) an article with a headline that starts “Outrage Follows…” and 2) a boy who had sex with a babysitter?
Don’t forget that we all support arson culture by keeping fire extinguishers in our homes.
‹puts on gun-control–advocate mask› “Why do you need that fire extinguisher anyway. Do you imagine (you silly thing) that you can stop a wild fire with that little thing? Leave fire extinguishing to government professionals.” ‹takes off gun-control–advocate mask and stuffs it deep in the trash can›
How many of the SJWs are active in producing something of capital value?
My sense is that this is the high-status version of the welfare recipient. Somebody who is unable or unwilling to be a productive member of society but who wants all of the privileges thereof. So, instead of doing the hard work, they sign up for to tear down those who do in hopes that they can keep some of the shards for themselves.
@franc
> SJW response? Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson et al. not only shutdown comments on their Youtube channels, but disable voting as well.
So? Are there no other places to comment on their insanity? These blogs etc. are just echo chambers, it is pretty pointless to comment there anyway.
To turn off comments is to concede defeat as all right thinking people know. And lets be clear here, these people are loud, they are vicious, they are dangerous, but they are also a TINY fraction of people. Don’t you find that among the decent women you know that they are reticent to call themselves feminists because that would associate them with these loons? Of course they believe in equal treatment under the law, equal pay for the same work, perhaps they even believe in structural changes in society to better accomodate the realities of working women. But they won’t call themselves feminists because they don’t believe in “rape culture” or “guilty until proven innocent” or “all sex is rape.” Why? Because they have brothers, and fathers, and boyfriends, and platonic male friends who they know are decent people.
> So, any other suggestions?
Yes. Stop trying to convince the tiny minority or nut jobs, and rather mock their silliness when surrounded by a mixed group of decent people and crazies. The SJWs don’t own the world you know.
@ ESR
You have certainly gotten the word out, thanks in part to the tourists (who will eventually leave, thank Goddess). I think this post has more Pingbacks than all previous posts in the last few years combined.
If the scalp-hunters see that the leaders and senior figures at a conference are avoiding ever being alone with a female, they (the scalp-hunters) aren’t going to be happy going home empty-handed. They will presumably go after targets of opportunity. All males at tech conferences should heed your advice.
Garrett on 2015-11-09 at 14:46:37 said:
How many of the SJWs are active in producing something of capital value? My sense is that this is the high-status version of the welfare recipient.
They have the Sacred Feeding Trough of Entitlement.
It’s called “Patreon”.
>They have the Sacred Feeding Trough of Entitlement. It’s called “Patreon”.
Eh? Nobody has any right to a Patreon subsidy, nor can anyone be forced to contribute. How,then, is it an entitlement?
@Jessica Boxer:
No, because most of the women I know don’t even know directly about these loons. Which would be fine, except that, unfortunately, they know second-hand that “there is still a war on feminism and a lot of misogynistic guys out there and a lot of sexism, especially in tech” because, you know, the rankings of numbers of females and minorities at Google and Apple and Facebook and Microsoft remains newsworthy.
So it’s interesting, for example, that my wife and daughters have zero interest in things like programming themselves, but think that the reason that those companies don’t have more female programmers must be structural sexism, and couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the fact that many other women also have zero interest in things like programming.
This means that it is impossible for me to broach the subject sensitively enough, and I’m sure they’re sure I’m quite sexist.
FWIW, here’s an interesting article on the correlation between job categories and being male or female, and being on the autistic spectrum or not:
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2015-11-million-people-reveals-sex-job.html
Jessica Boxer on 2015-11-09 at 17:49:57 said:
@franc
> SJW response? Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson et al. not only shutdown
>comments on their Youtube channels, but disable voting as well.
So? Are there no other places to comment on their insanity? These blogs etc. are just echo chambers, it is pretty pointless to comment there anyway. To turn off comments is to concede defeat as all right thinking people know.
They concede a defeat they deny being a defeat. I was not conceding defeat. I was pointing out a pattern of escalation. From disabling comments, to blocking them, to tampering / forging them and finally to mount a campaign to destroy comment sections altogether, especially in mainstream media, a campaign far greater than just the Guardian article which was more or less a “how to” for the goose steppers that followed –
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/10/27/the-lefts-war-on-comment-sections/
The original Grouch in a trashcan, Diogenes, said thousands of years ago (paraphrased) – That which cannot withstand criticism or mockery is false. Their actions not only concede falseness and defeat – they also expose a state of panic. Even 18 months ago when a piece of Valenti or Marcotte idiocy made a large media portal, comments were usually a 50/50 split. This year, everything has changed – now, the sentiment is 90%+ negative calling out their stupidity. They are right to panic.
The SJWs don’t own the world you know.
I know. Again, I was not expressing despair at futility, just pointing out a pattern of behaviour. I am actually quite optimistic – I think we have moved past peak SJW and are on the downhill run. If anything I’m jaded and tired – my community (atheist/skeptic) has been under attack longer than anyone else’s, since 2007. It has been a long, nasty and disgusting battle. But now a faint light can be seen at end of tunnel.
“The SJWs don’t own the world you know.”
Brandon Eich could not be reached for comment.
I should have said “undesirables” rather than “tourists”.
Feminists do not disagree on what “rape culture” is. They throw in everything but the kitchen sink. It’s a male sense of entitlement to women’s bodies, it’s sex-while-drunk, it’s the endemic misogyny of men, it’s patriarchy, it’s controlling women through heterosexuality, it’s the male desire to keep all women in a permanent state of fear, it’s seeing women as primarily sex objects. Any and everything which makes men look bad as an entire group is the goal. Only women who hate men, are mentally ill of exceedingly naive believe in rape culture. It is a demonization theory which violently opposes the concept of due process. Rape culture is pre-crime.
Good news, second-wave feminists are fighting back:
https://4thwavers.wordpress.com/
ssorbom: I’ll believe there’s a significant blowback when I see more than just one blog talking about it.
Jay Maynard on 2015-11-09 at 21:21:40 said:
ssorbom: I’ll believe there’s a significant blowback when I see more than just one blog talking about it.
Jay, if you don’t look, you won’t find.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/author/ashe-schow
https://cathyyoung.wordpress.com/
http://womenagainstfeminism.com/
And countless more.
Need to get out more Jay, these are from last century –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers#Who_Stole_Feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers#The_War_Against_Boys
And in case any other folks think this is new, its not. Past battles in living memory that have been won largely by gutsy, non-crazy women that received no praise or thank yous were –
The Porn Wars – the ’70s shit fight which caused the second/third wave schism
The original date rape crisis – late ’80s/early ’90s
This shit never goes away – all that happens is the volume varies. When this current nightmare gets beaten back to its identity studies ghettos to fester and lick its wounds it will already be plotting the next attack. My guesstimate will be around 2025, assuming we haven’t destroyed the planet before them.
@J. C. Salomon:
“So is it wrong for a judge (or jury) to decide that in a particular instance the legal minor was sufficiently mature to have meaningfully consented, and therefore not to apply the full penalty of the law?”
Are you seriously arguing that it can be okay for an adult to have sex with an 11 YO child? Really? No wonder your avatar is a fedora.
And it’s kind of disturbing that none of the comments following yours are bothered by it either.
@Nop:
I’d been trying to tune you out, and so didn’t read your whole post; I was responding to the general idea of statutory rape. Now that you’ve gotten my attention, let’s look at the case you mention…
The report doesn’t say what age she claimed, but if she’d plausibly claimed to be of legal age in that state I find it troubling he was convicted at all. (Although I’m sure you yourself, Nop, have always insisted on checking your partners’ identification to ensure they were as old as they claimed.)
The second case you pointed to does seem to be an instance of very poor judgement. (I don’t know if there are reliable data on the subject, but anecdotally it seems women are often treated more mildly than men are when charged with statutory rape.) Of course since the successful defense in both cases was that the minor was emotionally ready for sex, I’m not sure you get to draw different conclusions when the law treats both cases the same.
With that said…
If you’re trying to imply, with no basis in fact whatsoever, that Orthodox Jews are somehow more lenient on this subject than others, then have the courage to say so explicitly so all may know what sort of opinions you hold. If your argumentum ad petasum has some other meaning, please do enlighten me.
>They have the Sacred Feeding Trough of Entitlement.
>It’s called “Patreon”.
Oh. I thought you were going to say ‘academia’. Or ‘journalism’. Or ‘affirmative action set-asides in industry and government’.
>>It’s called “Patreon”.
>Oh. I thought you were going to say ‘academia’. Or ‘journalism’. Or ‘affirmative action \set->asides in industry and government’.
No, they all entail getting up off ass every now and then.
Nop on 2015-11-09 at 22:22:16 said:
@J. C. Salomon:
“So is it wrong for a judge (or jury) to decide that in a particular instance the legal minor was sufficiently mature to have meaningfully consented, and therefore not to apply the full penalty of the law?”
Are you seriously arguing that it can be okay for an adult to have sex with an 11 YO child? Really? No wonder your avatar is a fedora.
And it’s kind of disturbing that none of the comments following yours are bothered by it either.
Behold! A SJW in full flight.
1) Wilful misrepresentation – Salomon clearly states 17, yet Nop insists on 11 to imply Salomon is a pedophile sympathiser* and generate required degree of outrage/drama
2) Quote mining – dliberately omitting all details in Salomon’s comment that does not support assertions in point 1)
3) Smear by association – implies all other folk here are also pedophile sympathisers because none chose to wilfully distort Salomon’s comment the way Nop has
4) Association fallacy – Nop points out a fedora avatar as conclusive evidence of 1), 2) and 3)
Nop, you folks are truly repugnant parodies that would look outrageous in even early John Waters’ films.
* – Also selective blindness and pot-kettle-black: The way SJWs rallied around around Nyberg / @srhbutts after conclusive evidence of its kiddie diddling online fantasies and pic swapping. Also Salon’s recent pedophile apologia articles echoed by several other pro-SJW sites. Nauseating.
@franc
> I know. Again, I was not expressing despair at futility, just pointing out a pattern of behaviour. I am actually quite optimistic
Ah good, I am generally speaking too, today not so much with the ridiculous outcome with the resignation at the university of Missouri. But you win some you loose some.
@SDN
> Brandon Eich could not be reached for comment.
I used to date this Scottish guy, and he told me of an old Scottish saying: “If you sup with the devil, bring a long spoon.” Brandon Eich supped with the devil, CEO of a big company makes you a target. His spoon was too short. I think what happened to him was bad, but people who swim with sharks get bit. It is not something that should be extrapolated to all us mere minnows.
The Second/Third Wave schism was not over porn. It was over the idea white women were only looking out for themselves. The porn thing was something of a rift between gay and heterosexual feminist philosophy, and one which already existed.
Nop on 2015-11-09 at 22:22:16 said:
@J. C. Salomon:
“So is it wrong for a judge (or jury) to decide that in a particular instance the legal minor was sufficiently mature to have meaningfully consented, and therefore not to apply the full penalty of the law?”
Are you seriously arguing that it can be okay for an adult to have sex with an 11 YO child? Really? No wonder your avatar is a fedora.
And it’s kind of disturbing that none of the comments following yours are bothered by it either.
Behold! A SJW in full flight.
1) Wilful misrepresentation – Salomon clearly states 17, yet Nop insists on 11 to imply Salomon is a pedophile sympathiser and generate required degree of outrage/drama
2) Quote mining – dliberately omitting all details in Salomon’s comment that does not support assertions in point 1)
3) Smear by association – implies all other folk here are also pedophile sympathisers because none chose to wilfully distort Salomon’s comment the way Nop has
4) Association fallacy – Nop points out a fedora avatar as conclusive evidence of 1), 2) and 3)
Nop, you folks are truly repugnant parodies that would look outrageous in even early John Waters’ films.
Merely holding a high profile but entirely respectable position does not qualify, neither for -supping with the devil- nor for -swimming with sharks-. The missing components are unsavory and risk-seeking behaviors, respectively.
Unlike your idioms, your claim that lower profile targets won’t suffer the same sort of abuse as Eich is at least defensible, but should not be taken for granted. Two quick counterexamples are Moldbug and Vox Day, but there are cases across the whole spectrum from obscurity to international news.
@franc: “1) Wilful misrepresentation – Salomon clearly states 17, yet Nop insists on 11 to imply Salomon is a pedophile sympathiser and generate required degree of outrage/drama”
Well no, because he was the one who moved the goalposts when he ignored the fact that I’d been talking about people raping 11 YO children, which is illegal just about everywhere, & instead used an example of consensual sex with a 17 YO, which, BTW, would be perfectly legal in most first world nations, & seemed to think that that was somehow refuting my point.
@franc
That was a masterful rekt, 10/10.
Looking at the broader theory behind it, all four reduce to making the opponent look bad (reducing his prestige) instead of trying to convince someone some ideas are true or good. So it is prestige warfare.
And one thing I am noticing is how an incredibly large part of leftism reduces to being far too concerned about social prestige.
E.g. more I think about victim blaming or perpetrator blaming or both the more I realize that for an unemotional utilitarian who is interested only in maxing out everybody’s safety they are simply not useful terms at all. In the SJW mind, victim blaming is accusing the blamer of trying to deduct prestige points from the victim. They do this stuff all the time, they are super concerned with it so they project it and assume everybody is engaged in prestige warfare against others. So at some level they are so strongly interested in prestige that it matters more than e.g. safety. Be unsafe, just not be blamed for it i.e. getting harmed is somehow less bad than being seen as bad. It seems to me this over-concern with prestige or how others see one is perhaps what separates left-leaning and right-leaning minds.
Perhaps one way to defeat the left would be a form of prestige wireheading / prestige lotus eatery, i.e. creating a kind of virtual reality to them where everybody is telling them they are super clever and super moral and far better than That Guy and they will enjoy it so much they stop caring with reality :-) Although this VR already exists and it is called campus.
Nop on 2015-11-10 at 01:52:58 dug a few more feet down in own grave:
Well no, because he was the one who moved the goalposts when he ignored the fact…
Lol. An SJW accusing a person of ignoring facts.
Shut up Nop. You have no capacity to add anything to any discussion. You’re a downward spiral and you’re on turf you can’t editorially manipulate. Horrible, unfamiliar feeling eh?
TheDividualist on 2015-11-10 at 04:55:35 said:
re: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907&cpage=1#comment-1652704
Looking at the broader theory behind it, all four reduce to making the opponent look bad (reducing his prestige) instead of trying to convince someone some ideas are true or good. So it is prestige warfare.
The ad hominem is the only ammunition these twits really have, and as such, it is always the first resort. And the ultimate ad hom is doxing (the equivalent of Mao’s public shaming), hence why they love it so much and practice it so freely.
In Hitch-22, Christopher Hitchens autobio, he makes the following observation –
As 1968 began to ebb into 1969, however, and as “anticlimax” began to become a real word in my lexicon, another term began to obtrude itself. People began to intone the words “The Personal Is Political.” At the instant I first heard this deadly expression, I knew as one does from the utterance of any sinister bullshit that it was — cliché is arguably forgivable here — very bad news. From now on, it would be enough to be a member of a sex or gender, or epidermal subdivision, or even erotic “preference,” to qualify as a revolutionary. In order to begin a speech or to ask a question from the floor, all that would be necessary by way of preface would be the words: “Speaking as a . . .” Then could follow any self-loving description. I will have to say this much for the old “hard” Left: we earned our claim to speak and intervene by right of experience and sacrifice and work. It would never have done for any of us to stand up and say that our sex or sexuality or pigmentation or disability were qualifications in themselves. There are many ways of dating the moment when the Left lost or — I would prefer to say — discarded its moral advantage, but this was the first time that I was to see the sellout conducted so cheaply.
That passage stuck with me. Hitch, without realising it, witnessed the birth of the SJW – I guess lucky for him he died without seeing how the last few years have descended to new lows of narcissistic, raw self-pitying idiocy in what now passes as the “left”.
I’ve been mulling on it and I think it has now extended well past what Hitch saw it for. “The personal is the political” not only justifies identity politics, it justifies the ad hom – to attack the man, not the idea is a valid political tool in SJW eyes. Ideas can be dismissed, the only priority is assassinating the character.
SJWs really do need to be classified as a public health issue. They contaminate and poison everything they touch.
esr on 2015-11-10 at 06:07:54 said:
>They have the Sacred Feeding Trough of Entitlement. It’s called “Patreon”.
Eh? Nobody has any right to a Patreon subsidy, nor can anyone be forced to contribute. How,then, is it an entitlement?
It was a joke. There are a huge number of #SJWs, particularly in Gmergate, who subsist on Patreon as a living – Zoe Quinn, Brianna Wu, Randi Harper, Sarah Nyberg et al. The louder the howl in public, the more they are able to milk. The smallest Patreon I’ve seen of these was over $3k a month. Call it WhiteKnight social security instead of Patreon if you like.
>The smallest Patreon I’ve seen of these was over $3k a month.
That’s not very impressive. I’m over $1K a month and I’ve barely even been trying to promote my page. because I think the sound of constantly rattling a tin cup is shrill and vulgar. Heh…
Hey, everybody who has showed up here pissed off at the SJWs ought to drop a couple bucks a month into my Patreon feed. That’d show ’em!
I’m only half joking about this. If I had a noticeably larger Patreon contributor base than J. Random Big-Name SJW it would be difficult to argue that my opposition to SJW entryism represents a tiny, ignorable, splinter of a constituency. Possibly I already do have more contributors, but as long as the dollar volume is lower it will be difficult to see past that.
So, contribute generously. Not only do you get to support a person who is doing actual useful work, you get to poke a stick in the eye of obnoxious hateroids.
Or televangelism – because that is essentially what they are.
@franc
I am toying with an idea for a while, namely that perhaps left and liberal personalities are really different. Historically, the left personality is the Rousseau or Robespierre type, a boorish outcast with a certain quasi-religious fanaticism. The liberal is the Voltaire personality type, the totally “in” cool dude, high prestige, the witty, charmingly smart conversationalist, the popular guest of aristocratic salons. Libertarians like ESR often say that in the US the old liberalism got hijacked by leftism, and from a strict economic viewpoint it is true, but perhaps from the viewpoint of personality types it is the other way around. Nydwracu makes the opposite argument here: https://nydwracu.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/against-liberty-part-1-how-the-american-left-really-died/ anyhow, I think an Al Gore type is more Voltaire than Robespierre, more interested in being “cool” than being fanatical and control-freaky, although I could be wrong here.
However with SJ we see a strange recombination of these different personality types, both a liberal focus on prestige and feeling cool and a leftist focus on controlling others. But the controlling aspect seems later – the 1969 hippies and student revolutionaries weren’t much controlling, as far as I know, they focused on looking cool. And this seems to be Hitch’s experience – it is not about actually changing something, just having sexy revolutionary cred with no effort. I haven’t noticed college students being interested in being anything resembling a “policeman” up to 2008 where this “safe space” controlling stuff was born, or so but I may be very wrong with all this, it is just an idea kicking around in my head.
Anyhow if there is any use in my ideas in this line, it is to treat control-freakery and feelin’ cool as two separate personality traits that sometimes combine and sometimes not.
Here’s one post on tracking SJWs milking Patreon –
http://www.reaxxion.com/6198/how-patreon-is-getting-gamed-by-privileged-white-women
These people contributed nothing of practical value in return for donations – they just generated SJW propaganda and bred ill-will.
> It was a joke. There are a huge number of #SJWs, particularly in Gmergate, who subsist on Patreon as a living – Zoe Quinn, Brianna Wu, Randi Harper, Sarah Nyberg et al.
Pretty sure you meant aGGro rather than GamerGate? Zoe Quinn et al. are quite anti-GG.
TheDividualist: Anyhow if there is any use in my ideas in this line, it is to treat control-freakery and feelin’ cool as two separate personality traits that sometimes combine and sometimes not.
You are over-thinking it. There is not much complexity to it at all. First and foremost, they are social authoritarian absolutists and ideological dogmatists – they are very much in the same corner as Mao, Pol Pot, Plymouth Brethren, even Scientologists. You look at some of their most disgusting public shows of force and who do they remind you of? Me, it’s Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist. Deep down, they are possibly the most insecure, conformist, puritan subculture I have ever seen outside of the loopier Baptist fringes. They have their own uniform as distinct as Nazi skinheads is – blue hair, face piercings, ugly tattoos, retro horn rimmed glasses and second hand shop hipster outfits. This conformity/uniformity/insecurity naturally lends itself to a hive mind, as opposed to that of autonomous mammals.
I can’t find any way to look at any of this as being socially or psychologically healthy – it is a retreat from a reality they deem universally impure and corrupt. Which also gives them that “the end is nigh!” millenialist tinge. I find it deeply disturbing and (call me paranoid if you like) if left unchecked actually does have the potential to unravel western civilisation.
Pretty sure you meant aGGro rather than GamerGate? Zoe Quinn et al. are quite anti-GG.
Thanks guest, I did. It didn’t occur to me I needed to explain, assumed common knowledge.
“It is not something that should be extrapolated to all us mere minnows.”
No, us minnows are swallowed without chewing. If they can take down someone who’s a leader in his field, taking down someone who won’t be noticed is easy.
> These people contributed nothing of practical value in return for donations – they just generated SJW propaganda and bred ill-will.
Not surprising at all. After all, they’re mainly subsisting on the widespread (in the mainstream media) delusion that “GamerGate” is some sort of vast male-chauvinist, fedora-wearing conspiracy against ‘Women in Video-Games’, so they now have a pretty strong incentive to perpetuate that mass delusion and generate more media outrage.
> These people contributed nothing of practical value in return for donations – they just generated SJW propaganda and bred ill-will.
So a lot of fools bought themselves a useful lesson. This looks like a good thing, they are probably super pissed now. It is something akin to bad businesses being eliminated on the free market. At some level you clearly want your competitors to be an ass to their own customers. Although in this case I think the pissed off customers will just end up buying something equally lefty.
TheDividualist on 2015-11-10 at 08:17:10 said:
> These people contributed nothing of practical value in return for donations – they just generated SJW propaganda and bred ill-will.
So a lot of fools bought themselves a useful lesson. This looks like a good thing, they are probably super pissed now.
Not enough. It seems for every twit that realises they were conned, two fresh twits spring up in their place. Anita Sarkeesian got over $400k e-begging last year – Patreon scams are only the tip of the iceberg (apologies if I impugned ESR – just noticed his Patreon button, most users are legit).
The problem is true believer syndrome – no amount of evidence they are being conned will ever extinguish The Faith. These grifters are true professionals, close to Benny Hinn grade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome
@Anonymous
> Merely holding a high profile but entirely respectable position does not qualify
Holding a high profile position is a high risk choice. When you make high risk choices and loose then I have less sympathy (but not zero sympathy) for you that some random dude getting caught in the cross fire.
As I have said before the biggest problem with the Eich situation was that he was forced to disclose a political contribution that should have been entirely private.
>Holding a high profile position is a high risk choice. When you make high risk choices and loose then I have less sympathy (but not zero sympathy) for you that some random dude getting caught in the cross fire.
This is circular reasoning. There is nothing inherently high risk about being CEO of Mozilla. It’s not even particularly high profile. Most people don’t know and don’t care about who makes their sausage – or, in this case, their web browser.
It’s only high risk in a roundabout, post hoc sense, -because- activists chose to make a target of him. If, hypothetically, the same mob started badgering a no-name catering business for hypothetically refusing to serve at a gay wedding – well, turns out that’s high risk behavior too.
This bullshit narrative, where ‘especially public people’ have a ‘particular responsibility’ to ‘represent their communities’ and ‘be good role models’ is the rules they make up for themselves as they go, trying to justify their vindictiveness. People with actual moral backbone reject them.
Brendan Eich did not go -swimming with sharks-. He was minding his own damn business, and the sharks came after him.
I wrote a thing about the SJW problem a couple of months ago:
https://catblade.wordpress.com/2015/09/21/creating-diverse-spaces/
Here is a full response to your post here (and various comments):
https://catblade.wordpress.com/2015/11/10/sjw-issues/
I’m frustrated with the entire thing, but please please please don’t refuse to mentor us just because some people who happen to be carrying ovaries are acting like offal.
>I’m frustrated with the entire thing, but please please please don’t refuse to mentor us just because some people who happen to be carrying ovaries are acting like offal.
My senior apprentice is a woman.
Much of the responsibility for solving the SJW problem has to rest on the sane, get-things-done women in tech – who I’ve never doubted are the vast majority, because I’ve known a goodly number of them.
Right now, the scalp-collecting harpies operate as they do partly because they think they have your support and acquiescence. And, in a sense, they do. Who came to Tim Hunt’s aid when he was attacked? I suggest that you need to see defending people like him as a necessary part of ensuring that women in tech are taken seriously
What women’s groups are out there saying “We reject identity politics and perpetual grievance-collecting?” Who is standing up for sane equity feminism against the crazed third-wavers?
Maybe you thought this wasn’t your problem to solve. I fear it is.
Marlow, how are we supposed to determine whether the request for mentoring is coming from a genuinely interested techie or from a scalp-collecting harpy?
@J. C. Salomon
> If you’re trying to imply, with no basis in fact whatsoever, that Orthodox Jews are somehow more lenient on this subject
Whoa, hey, there’s a stereotype that has emerged in the last decade or so, of which wearing a fedora is a part, that has nothing to do with religion (except maybe a particularly smug brand of atheism).
And I for one have never heard of any kind of stereotype or association whereby a fedora would have anything to do with being Jewish.
@Random832: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism#Dress. But my pseudo-offensensitivity was aimed at Nop; I’d hoped others at least would take it for sarcasm.
@Anonymous
> Holding a high profile position is a high risk choice.
Of course it is! It is politics and all politics is high risk. Evidence? The outcome is clear evidence.
Mozilla is a critical company in the technology world a world that is almost entirely non conservative (either liberal or libertarian.) Most of its funding derives from Google, one of the most liberal companies in America. So yeah. High risk.
But again, the problem was not the witch hunt (though that was a bad thing for sure) the problem was the public disclosure demanded that he reveal a private matter — his political affiliation — in public. It is a great example of why the FEC and similar state level laws, are extremely dangerous and destructive. And a perfect example of a supposed “for the good of the people” dumb ass idea has horrible secondary consequences.
@esr “My senior apprentice is a woman.”
The thing is, your anonymous friend said “I can no longer afford to mentor women who are already in tech”, with nothing about whether they’re associated with the kind of group he goes on to talk about. And in your article post you apparently wholeheartedly endorsed his views, so it’s certainly understandable for people to assume that you, along with him, “refuse to mentor women”.
Joel: “if she’d plausibly claimed to be of legal age in that state I find it troubling he was convicted at all.”
Actually, that is not a defense to the crime of sexual abuse of a child in many states. There was a recent case of an 18-year-old Ohio man (or was it Indiana?) who found himself being placed on the sex offender registry because he had sex with a 14-year-old who lied about her age; the judge granted him leniency after an outcry, but he’s still convicted.
“argumentum ad petasum”
EXPN?
@Jay Maynard:
echo "argumentum ad hominem" | sed s/hominem/petasum/
> “Holding a high profile position is a high risk choice”
You know, it makes me wonder if there isn’t a hidden cleverness to the reputation that ESR has (rightly or wrongly) accrued of no longer being relevant. If people think you’re a washed-up has-been (even if, mind you, you’re not), then they’re less likely to target you because they don’t get as much status from taking down a washed-up has-been.
>You know, it makes me wonder if there isn’t a hidden cleverness to the reputation that ESR has (rightly or wrongly) accrued of no longer being relevant.
I’m afraid I cannot claim to be this prescient. My original strategic plan to stop being the Indispensable Man as soon as possible was based on historical study of reform and utopian movements and how they often fared poorly if the founder remained central, preventing effective institutionalization. The failure often manifested as succession crises and/or a decline into near irrelevance following the death or departure of the founder.
@Jessica: Interestingly, there’s been at least one legal case exempting someone from FEC disclosure rules because he argued that disclosing his donations could put his career/personal life in jeopardy. His donations were to a socialist party.
Who could have predicted that believing that marriage was a one man/one woman thing could ever end a career? We live in crazy times….
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/426452/political-correctness-peaks-social-justice-liberals
The SJW attitude was DOA. No one likes a thin skin complainer, a prima donna, a professional victim who beckons at anything they disagree with, regardless of what’s being said is moral, right, truthful and just. Sure, if you are harassing women sexually, verbally, you should be reprimanded, punished and exposed but deliberately tempting men to stumble or creating situations in which their weaknesses are deliberately, purposefully exposed and provoked… well that’s just hellishly wrong. Or complaining about another’s freedom of expression however disagreeable to you that might be… well no one is going to stand for that.
Don’t forget – vote Carson/Trump in 2016.
@PapayaSF
> Who could have predicted that believing that marriage was a one man/one woman thing could ever end a career? We live in crazy times….
Hold on there. Let me just be clear, in the case of Brendan Eich, I am aligned with the Voltaire misquote: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. Well perhaps not to the death, but I will at least say shit on the Internet about it.. :).
But although I think he should be able to contribute to a cause like that, I find the cause repugnant, I find the cause a perfect example of the flaws of democracy that a majority should somehow determine the life course of a minority.
Personally I’m not interested in getting married to a female, but if I were, I would certainly feel that his vote was his contribution to my oppression.
The point of the blog entry, as I see it, is that the number of men in tech who are trying to get women alone to grope, creep on, or rape them probably vastly exceeds the number of women in tech who are setting honeytraps.
The vast majority of sane, get-things-done men in the field have a problem they need to solve first.
Clean your own house before filing complaints against the neighbors.
>Clean your own house before filing complaints against the neighbors.
Don’t change the subject. To the extent there’s a grope/creep-on/rape problem it’s primarily for men to solve; to the extent there’s a problem with screeching SJW harpies taking scalps it’a problem primariuly for women to solve. The one does not preclude or invalidate the other.
@Jessica: The hypothetically-non-heterosexual you is not “oppressed” by society not according “you” the special privileges given those in relationships oriented around the production and raising of children unless “you” actually are in such a relationship. Lack of special recognition is not oppression.
@TriggerFinger
> by society not according “you” the special privileges given those in relationships oriented around the production and raising of children
Come on dude, that is like a softball question, the response is so boringly obvious that it isn’t even worth typing. Can’t you come up with something better than that.
@Jessica: In what way are you oppressed by society not recognizing a marriage to another woman? In what way are you oppressed any more than, say, society not recognizing that my cats are dependents that I should be able to claim on my taxes?
The fact is, you are not. You can engage freely in whatever form of relationship you choose, with anyone (who is a legal adult) you choose. You don’t get to file taxes jointly. You don’t get health insurance through your “spouse” (unless the company voluntarily offers it, and if they don’t, you can get Obamacare). You might not get hospital visitation privileges (but you can get those in most states by filing for a civil partnership). You might have trouble finding someone to bake you a wedding cake or let you use their church to conduct a ceremony (but you can sue them for the price of a small house). But somehow you are oppressed by this, rather than by ISIS stoning suspected gay people to death daily.
This immensely cheapens the idea of oppression.
@TriggerFinger offers a litany of things that the government grants one type of couple but not another.
I think you are making my point. We are supposed to be equal under the law, justice is supposed to be blind, so by what means are you ok justifying that one couple doesn’t get the same tax benefits as another just because of their gender?
Let me offer you an example — let’s say that the government passed a change to the tax law that says the standard deduction for men was $0 and the standard deduction for women was $20,000. Would you object? Would you complain? Would you think that grossly unfair? Would you accept that it was an attack on men by the feminazi left?
Now if you say — take marriage entirely out of consideration by the state, eliminate tax deductions (or better taxes entirely), I will be right there holding a banner with you, but you aren’t you want the continuation of an entirely unjust system that is extremely significant in some aspects.
I am a libertarian, if you don’t want to bake my wedding cake then don’t, in fact, if you don’t want to then I don’t want you too. Don’t perform a service in your church if you don’t want to (though have the decency to be consistent and refuse to marry fornicators too.)
But there is a gigantic difference between private arrangements and public laws. Make it all private and I am with you. But if the government is giving these types of rights to one group of couples it is simply a religious judgement to not give them to others.
It isn’t stoning to death, but it is a very significantly impactful imposition on people’s lives when it is completely unnecessary. I don’t understand why you would even object except out of some religious or moral disapproval of homosexuality. And frankly, it is none of your damn business.
Oh and one other thing @TriggerFinger, you do realize that this last comment from your is number 666 on this thread. I don’t judge. I’m just sayin’….
@Jessica: “But although I think he should be able to contribute to a cause like that, I find the cause repugnant,”
Then all you have to do is answer one question: Should the fact that you disagree with someone’s politics be grounds for destroying his livelihood / career / business?
Be very careful how you answer this, because if the answer is Yes, then what you are really saying is that there is no room for either tolerance or compromise over political differences. If that’s the case, then war, politics by other means, is the only choice left.
@Jessica: It’s not “because of your gender”, it’s because “you are not married”, and marriage is defined to mean a man and a woman for thousands upon thousands of years. The difference has to do with the potential for children, the legal issues that can arise (paternity, inheritance, etc). The are lots of valid, rational reasons for relationships involving children or the potential for children to be treated differently.
As for the rest of your post: try to relax. I’m a libertarian atheist. I have no desire to “impose on” anyone else’s life, gay or straight. I’d like to see everyone’s taxes reduced as much as possible. However, I do not wish my life to be imposed upon, either. And from my perspective, suing people who politely decline to bake wedding cakes is an imposition, and that’s the face of the gay marriage movement today. Pushing what should be legislative changes through the judicial branch is also an imposition.
If you want equal tax rights, you can make a legislative case for that and I might even support you. I’d love to see you, or someone, bring a rational legislative proposal to state legislatures and try to pass it, because then we could both shut up about it and get on with our lives. I wouldn’t mind getting government out of marriage entirely, except that the legal issues for “relationships with children” aren’t going away any time soon and the whole point of the “gay marriage” movement appears to be getting government involved in forcing things upon other people anyway.
And please don’t accuse me of being a religious bigot on this issue, or of trying to stick my nose into other people’s business. Other people bring up the topic, and seek to compel others to approve of them through judicial fiat and government force. I’m going to be against “compelling others… through government force” consistently.
“Be very careful how you answer this, because if the answer is Yes, then what you are really saying is that there is no room for either tolerance or compromise over political differences.”
People have a tendency wrap a bunch of very different kinds of opinions and actions in the vague phrase “political differences” and pretend that means that they all have to be treated the same.
@Jessica re 666: If I was the religious bigot you seem to be accusing me of, that might disturb my calm. Luckily, my calm remains as a still pond of clear water.
@TriggerFinger “The difference has to do with the potential for children”
Well, “the response is so boringly obvious that it isn’t even worth typing” aside, it’s apparently not that obvious to you. We, as a society, let people who can’t have biological children get married all the time. And they certainly don’t lack the ability to raise children, not unless you’re going to take a much more extreme position than you have thus far.
@Random832: There’s a reason heterosexual relationships are treated differently: children. The cases where children are unlikely or impossible are the exceptions that prove the rule, particularly when the rule was formulated millenia before we could have any real idea whether two people would successfully produce children or not. If they met the basic criteria (one male, one female) it was good enough for them to give it a try and see what happened. And note that if one of the parties was found infertile that was often enough to dissolve the marriage.
> particularly when the rule was formulated millenia before we could have any real idea whether two people would successfully produce children or not.
This isn’t an excuse. Either the ability (and inclination, for that matter) to produce children is a present-day public-policy goal, or it is not. Maybe these benefits should only be given to couples who have had at least one child.
@Ranndom832: “Maybe those benefits should be given to couples who have had at least one child…”
Sounds good to me. Bring a proposal to your state legislature and/or federal to remove those benefits from married couples until the birth of their first child. I won’t oppose it.
I think the production of children raised in a healthy family environment is a reasonable present day public policy goal that’s worth encouraging, if we’re going to have public policy goals of that nature.
I don’t think anyone seriously believes this fight is about tax benefits. (If they do, please take them and go away). For the right, it’s about defending tradition, sticking with what works, insisting that legislative changes be made legislatively rather than through judicial fiat, and ultimately the freedom to decline to bake a cake for people who hate them. For the left, it’s about punishing their enemies and funding the SJW grievance industry. For me, it’s about being left alone… because I don’t care what people do with each other in the privacy of their own home, but I’d rather not have it shoved in my face and my approval solicited at the point of a government gun.
@TriggerFinger
> I think the production of children raised in a healthy family environment
Your use of the phrase “healthy family environment” sounds like it could be code for the more extreme position that I asked in an earlier comment if you intended to take, so I’ll ask outright: Do you believe that same-sex couples cannot provide such an environment? (to children who are necessarily biologically related to at most only one of them, but still)
@Random832: Let’s say that I have a suspicion that a healthy family environment involves, in its ideal form, one adult example of each gender. I don’t claim that anyone should be prevented from trying to raise children with the family they have, but if I was in charge of placing a child with an adoptive family, I’d start by looking at heterosexual couples. I’m not going to get down into the weeds of that debate (“Does a heterosexual pair of drug dealers and child abusers trump two lesbian non-binary-gender activists who want to raise a boy named Sue?”) because I’m not in that position, I don’t care that much, and I don’t know what the supply and demand of children for adoption happens to be. I’d like to see each child placed in the best possible environment for the child.
I will say this: I don’t know if same sex couples can or cannot provide a healthy family environment. I don’t think anyone else knows either. The way things are going, in another generation or two we can do the studies and find out how this social experiment turned out. I can imagine such an environment created by two non-heterosexual individuals, but I suspect it would be easier for a heterosexual family to do so for the reasons stated above.
Before you leap to any more conclusions, I was adopted myself. Providing the best possible environment for an adopted child is important to that child: more important than the desire of a pair of non-heterosexual individuals to adopt and raise a child.
For a pair of non-heterosexual individuals who can produce a child through some biological means of their own involving consenting third parties who are not subsequently placed on the hook for child support[1], it really is none of my business and none of the government’s business. Since they are going to do it whether I think it’s a good idea or not, I wish them and their children the best and hope it all turns out well.
[1]: A real example in the news recently.
@TriggerFinger
> Sounds good to me. Bring a proposal to your state legislature and/or federal to remove those benefits from married couples until the birth of their first child. I won’t oppose it.
And gay couples with a child too? What about hetero couples where the child is only the natural biological child of one parent? How about adopted children?
> I don’t think anyone seriously believes this fight is about tax benefits.
No, it is about much more serious things — like the right to medical information or the right to make decisions for another. It is about the right to adopt lost children into a loving and caring family. It is about treating people equally before the law, for example by applying spousal privilege or spousal visitation rights. It is about a lot of other things. And to put them in a separate and rarely equal category of “civil partnerships” is simply to discriminate in the law against others.
I would be fine if everyone had civil partnerships, or if nobody had any special legal rights over another, or if marriage applied to anyone who wanted to be married. The situation as it was before was profoundly unjust.
> For me, it’s about being left alone… because I don’t care what people do with each other in the privacy of their own home, but I’d rather not have it shoved in my face and my approval solicited at the point of a government gun.
No one is asking your approval, on the contrary it is none of your damn business. It isn’t clear at all what the private arrangements of two people entirely removed from do anything other than leave you alone.
It is true that marriage has been defined as one man and one woman for thousands of years. But it is also true that marriage has been defined to allow husbands to beat and rape their wives, to take all their property in divorce (a situation which is almost reversed unfairly now) and many other injustices. Thankfully we got rid of all those, just as we got rid of what Mr. Eich spent money to try to keep.
@Random832: I should note a couple additional points.
1) Non-heterosexual couples can arrange to reproduce through whatever means whether the state gives them a marriage certificate or not, so I don’t really think that’s entirely relevant. Denying the marriage certificate does not prevent the children.
2) I find it interesting that you completely ignored the meat of my position and immediately demanded that I answer your implied accusation of bigotry. I suspect your response to my last post will be useful in determining whether you are interested in having a reasonable discussion on the topic or calling people names.
@Jessica:
RE: tax benefits: As far as I am concerned, raising a child is a reasonable tax benefit. Don’t really care about the details. Bring the proposal to your state and federal legislatures, not your local ambulance chaser.
RE: Right to medical information or making decisions for each other. See above, but please determine whether your state already offers such benefits under the “civil partnership” label.
RE: Adoption: See my response to Random832. That’s a complex question on which I have preferences but not firm rules and a personal stake. Don’t oppress me.
RE: treating people equally before the law: Biological reality says that men and women are different, and those differences are a reasonable, rational basis for laws treating relationships differently. Bring your argument to your legislature, not your ambulance chaser.
RE: “civil partnerships”: Does the name matter or do the legal rights matter? I think the legal rights matter. I think the name doesn’t matter.
RE: “unjust”: I disagree, but I also don’t much care. Bring your argument to your legislature, not your local black-robed lawyer. I won’t be there to oppose you unless you threaten to sue me for not baking you a cake.
RE: “none of my damn business”: if it’s none of my business, why did you bring it up, and why are you continuing to insist that I agree with you and bake you a cake? Seriously: leave me alone to live my life and stop claiming I am intruding on *your* life when you are the one demanding public recognition, tax benefits, adoption rights, cake entitlements, general approval for your (still hypothetical, I assume) relationship, and the spaghetti monster in the sky knows what else?
I think it’s hilarious that you are claiming to be oppressed in this situation. Not even personally oppressed, but hypothetically oppressed presumably on behalf of some other person not participating in the discussion.
I don’t want to oppress you. I don’t want to be involved in your hypothetical life with your hypothetical non-heterosexual partner. You are the one asking for tax benefits, legal recognition, positive government action, special protection from discrimination, and cake entitlements.
I am saying, at strongest, “Please bring this to your state or federal representative and pass a reasonable law to that effect, subject to the normal legislative process where a compromise solution can be properly worked out, rather than going through the judicial branch and suing everyone.”
And finally, RE: lots of bad things about old marriage rules. Your only intent in bringing that up is to attempt to tar me by association and revert to the standard feminist tropes about patriachal oppression. Sorry, not playing that game.
TriggerFinger:”RE: “civil partnerships”: Does the name matter or do the legal rights matter? I think the legal rights matter. I think the name doesn’t matter.”
This is an argument for “separate but equal”. It’s a lovely legal argument, and it was the law for 50 years or so in regard to education. There’s only one problem: it proved to be impossible in practice. “Separate but equal” turned out never to be equal.
Personally, I would not oppose having government get out of the marriage business entirely. Call them all civil partnerships.
But, fundamentally, it’s about a basic civil right, and those are not validly subject to the whims of the electorate. Or would you be happy with the people of New York City voting on your right to keep and bear arms?
@Jay Maynard: #NotAllNewYorkers ;)
@Jay: My right to keep and bears arms is enumerated in the Constitution. The claimed right to (non-heterosexual) marriage is not. (I acknowledge that the SC currently disagrees with me on this one, but that doesn’t make their position any more intellectually defensible, and neither does citing SC decisions referring to interracial marriage or school segregation by race; the principle there was race, not gender or choice of partner).
I do not appreciate your lumping my reasoned and rational arguments into the loaded term “separate but equal”. That way lies madness and SJW victim-screeching, not a reasonable discussion. There’s a rational, non-bigoted reason for the difference in law. You may not agree with my position, but it’s not founded in hatred, so stop trying to imply that it is.
I’d be perfectly happy if the state removed itself from the marriage business and offered civil partnerships to everyone, so long as it did so by legislative act rather than judicial fiat and without a lot of extra rights and cake entitlements attached. Like I said: if it’s about the tax benefits for children and the visitation rights for partners, come and get them, I won’t oppose you in front of a legislature. I will oppose you if you bring that argument to a judge, because that’s not where it belongs.
> But, fundamentally, it’s about a basic civil right, and those are not validly subject to the whims of the electorate. Or would you be happy with the people of New York City voting on your right to keep and bear arms?
They aren’t valid subjects of activist judges either. Or would you be happy with a court of judges appointed by the likes of Obama deciding on a Muslim’s “right” not to be offended?
Also, to all the people claiming to be libertarians, do you believe in a buisness’s right to serve or not-serve whoever they want for any reason, including race, gender, sexual deviency, etc.?
@TomM: The State of Texas tried really hard to outlaw civil partnerships for gays. But even in places where they are legal, when you go to the hospital and say “he’s my wife” you’ll probably do much better than “We have a civil contract.”
So yes, marriage needs to be redefined precisely because there is nothing else equal to it. If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine, but don’t act surprised when your debating opponents lump you in with all the bigots.
Sorry, I think that should have been @TriggerFinger, not @TomM…
@TriggerFinger:
You haven’t delineated any truly rational reasons other than “it’s always been done that way”, so it’s not surprising that Occam’s Razor gets applied.
@Patrick: Do you really think that changing the legal name of the relationship will change people’s beliefs? It may change the legal requirements on their actions, but you’ve already admitted that wasn’t enough.
@Patrick: I beg to differ; I’ve laid out a number of them. That you don’t recognize them as such and insist on reverting to the “bigot!” argument does you no credit.
@Eugine_Nier: All the regulars here who consider themselves libertarians will say “of course, while recognizing that there may be social consequences”, so don’t make a play for gotchas.
@Eugine_Nier
> do you believe in a buisness’s right to serve or not-serve whoever they want for any reason, including race, gender, sexual deviency, etc.?
Yes, I do, as I have said several times already.
@TriggerFinger
> I do not appreciate your lumping my reasoned and rational arguments into the loaded term “separate but equal”.
No doubt it is loaded, but it is a useful comparison for those of us who can get past the baggage (and we here are smart enough to do so.) The downfall of the separate but equal doctrine was that the theory translated into separate but unequal, especially so when governed by those who were hostile to the equality in the first place.
The comparison with marriage verses civil partnerships is a pretty tight parallel on the relevant points. I’ll grant you that it is less impactful on than the black citizens in the south under that doctrine, but it IS impactful in many serious ways.
And the only reason to have a separation is because you think it needs to be treated differently in some respects, there is no other purpose to separation than that. Many gay couples have children, so your argument based on child rearing just doesn’t apply.
And FWIW, I find it utterly dreadful that you can make a statement wondering if a gay couple can raise a child in a healthy environment. OMG, of course they can! Have you any idea some of the dreadful environments some children live in? Have you any idea how dreadful the lives of some children are in foster and government care? Some gay parents are good and some are bad and most are in between, just the same as straight parents. Many children from single parent homes, from Moms (usually) who care and try, grow up to be fabulous human beings.
You doubt on this matter is ridiculous. Homes are not good or bad, they are in between because parents are flawed people. You might question if the mean of parent quality is higher or lower for gay people (frankly I suspect that on average gay parents are actually better because of selection effects, however I could be wrong) but the idea that there are no, or very few healthy families headed by gay people is just nonsense.
Someone who has resorted to calling his opponent a “bigot” has no right to complain about “gotchas”.
@TriggerFinger:
I never actually called you a bigot. I have no idea whether or not you’re a bigot. I’m explaining why others are calling you a bigot. That you’re incapable of reading and responding to what I wrote does you no credit.
I don’t give a rat’s ass whether it changes beliefs or not. I care deeply whether it changes actions (like getting granted access at a hospital, for example.)
@Jessica Boxer
> Yes, I do, as I have said several times already.
So in particular hospitals should have the right to adopt whatever visitation policy they want regardless of whether the people are married, or “married”. There goes that argument.
Rest of your argument. It appears to be arguing that because some children grow up in bad environments it’s ok to put more children in bad environments, with a slice of fallacy of gray thrown in for good measure.
> 2) I find it interesting that you completely ignored the meat of my position and immediately demanded that I answer your implied accusation of bigotry
The meat of your position is that the purpose of marriage is to incentivize suitable [for whatever values of “suitable”] couples to have and raise children. What you consider a suitable couple is highly relevant.
But someone falsely accused of calling people bigots has every right to point out your iterated dishonesty.
> The meat of your position is that the purpose of marriage is to incentivize suitable [for whatever values of “suitable”] couples to have and raise children. What you consider a suitable couple is highly relevant.
Yes, and no matter what the definition is, you could claim that this constitutes “bigotry” against unsuitable couples. That’s why using the word “bigotry” adds nothing to the discussion.
(To be clear: I’m perfectly willing to use the term when it’s actually appropriate, and I can point to the actual specific bigotry being spouted by the person who’s usually already resorted to ad hominem, but I certainly haven’t in this discussion, and the flippant peppering of inflammatory language is exactly Frankfurtian bullshit.)
@Jessica: Just a quick response, I may follow up with more later on.
“And FWIW, I find it utterly dreadful that you can make a statement wondering if a gay couple can raise a child in a healthy environment.”
No matter how dreadful you find it, what I actually said was: “I don’t know if same sex couples can or cannot provide a healthy family environment. I don’t think anyone else knows either.”
I don’t know how important it is to a child’s development to have a parent of both genders on which to model his conception of others and of a functioning heterosexual relationship (bearing in mind that only some small percentage of children raised by non-heterosexual couples will actually be non-heterosexual). That’s not a value judgement based on the parents’ preferences, it’s based on a rational consideration of what the child needs. One of the reasons I don’t know is that single parents sometimes raise children that turn out well, despite falling short of the ideal. I’m not saying it’s impossible or even unlikely. I’m saying I don’t know, and I’ll add here that I’m sure there are specific examples that will turn out well and specific examples that will turn out poorly.
What I do know is that I don’t want to get into trying to make value judgements between good families, bad families, foster homes, and orphanages. I believe I mentioned I was adopted myself. I believe that decision should be made according to the specific child and the specific families who wish to adopt. There’s not much use going at it from a hypothetical perspective. The only way to make that decision is on an individual basis.
I think that if you stopped to listen to yourself, and tried to think of the matter from the perspective of finding the best possible home for the child rather than the best possible child for the parents you might be surprised with how much you agree with my position.
> Yes, and no matter what the definition is, you could claim that this constitutes “bigotry” against unsuitable couples. That’s why using the word “bigotry” adds nothing to the discussion.
A word which, you’ll note, I have not used. He chose to infer that my suspicion (which was, mind you, correct) regarding what position he held about what sort of couple is suitable was an “implied accusation of bigotry”.
> with a slice of fallacy of gray thrown in for good measure.
There is a spectrum of quality of environment, and it’s absurd to claim that there isn’t. The foster care system is, regardless of where you place anything else, near the bottom of the scale.
@Jessica Boxer
> And FWIW, I find it utterly dreadful that you can make a statement wondering if a gay couple can raise a child in a healthy environment.
So basically, we’re not supposed to ask the question at all.
I don’t see how this is different than the typical leftist anti-science position: “I find it utterly dreadful that you can make a statement wondering if blacks are as smart as whites.”
Or even the SJW position: “I find it utterly dreadful that you can make a statement questioning the rape survivors story.”
@Patrick: “I never actually called you a bigot. I have no idea whether or not you’re a bigot. I’m explaining why others are calling you a bigot. That you’re incapable of reading and responding to what I wrote does you no credit.”
It is correct that you never actually used the word yourself, but your position can be implied from the rest of the quote, and as such, I am definitely reading and responding to what you wrote and implied. You claimed I had presented no rational arguments for my position.
My positions so far have been “Take it to the legislature, not the judicial branch”, “Put the best interests of the child ahead of the (potential, adoptive) parents”, “There is a biological difference that separates relationships likely and intended to result in children from those which are not, and that difference may justiify different legal treatment in some ways”, “If it’s about tax benefits and visitation rights, go and get them”, and “Don’t sue me for not wanting to bake you a cake.”
I haven’t presented any rational arguments for being evil because I am not evil. I’m not presenting rational arguments for oppressing non-heterosexual partnerships because I don’t want to oppress non-heterosexual partnerships. At strongest, I’m asking people to bring rational proposals before their local legislature and be willing to discuss them and possibly compromise. If I have a position on gay marriage other than that, it’s probably closest to Jay’s (“Why is the government marrying people anyway? Give everyone a civil partnership”). The difference is that I can see the arguments and the merit in preserving the traditional and religious institution of marriage, and the response from some people here is “OMG of course they can!” without any factual support presented or concern for the alternative outcome or even any consideration of possibly being wrong.
The world is not made of brilliant white and blackest night, @Jessica. What seems obvious to you is not necessarily true, nor necessarily certain. Move carefully. Step lightly. Talk to the other side, hear their arguments, forge a compromise, and if it goes well, take the next step in a few years.
@Random832: “A word which, you’ll note, I have not used. He chose to infer that my suspicion (which was, mind you, correct) regarding what position he held about what sort of couple is suitable was an “implied accusation of bigotry”.”
The answer to your question was “I don’t know”. How does that make your suspicion correct?
“I’m asking people to bring rational proposals before their local legislature and be willing to discuss them and possibly compromise.”
Which of your civil rights are you willing to compromise on?
And yes, it’s at that level. Black people did not choose to be black and cannot change it. Gay people did not choose to be gay and cannot change it. The cases are exactly parallel.
All of this leaves me wondering how we got off the track of SJWs and entrapment…
“Bigot” gets thrown around a lot. How does the dictionary (that most hated of Patriarchal documents) actually define it?
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
The biggest bigots on the block are SJWs themselves.
> Gay people did not choose to be gay and cannot change it.
You might want to be careful about getting your science from SJW-controlled sources.
> Which of your civil rights are you willing to compromise on?
While we’re making up “rights” willie-nillie, I’ll compromise by “right” not to be offended.
Jay Maynard on 2015-11-10 at 19:30:01 said:
All of this leaves me wondering how we got off the track of SJWs and entrapment…
When a thread like this got out of control in atheism, we created Slymepit.com (a derisive term given us by SJWs and gratefully accepted) – 3 years and 300k posts later, it’s still going strong and the go-to resource for shooting down charlatans and frauds withing our community. The more it is attacked, the stronger it gets.
Maybe you propeller heads need something similar. Everything mentioned here is worthy of continued discussion.
@Jay: No, it is not at that level. I do not believe the Constitution requires recognition of (and tax benefits, etc, etc, etc, etc) same-sex marriages. A legislative case can be made for it. There is no Constitutional case for it, except in the fevered and senile minds of 5 justices.
One of the problems with the judicial approach is that there are differences that may need to be taken into account, because of simple biological facts, and the judicial equality approach means those differences are forever off limits.
And as for which of my civil rights I am willing to compromise on? Do you have any idea how many times gun rights advocated have swallowed a “compromise” to prevent losing the whole game and told ourselves we would regain our rights through the political (and yes judicial, since we have an enumerated right recognized at the founding of our nation) process rather than deciding that we weren’t going to compromise at all and taking the obvious alternative path?
Yes, when you strongly believe in something, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth to compromise about it. But it also reflects a basic respect for other people’s opinions and the process of a Constitutional representative republic. I’d much rather this debate stay on the political side, with honest discussion and acceptance of different views and compromise, than have one side ramming judicial fiats down the throat of the other side. In the end, we all have to live with and respect each other, and that means we are well advised to function by persuasion and rational discussion.
Random832 on 2015-11-10 at 16:10:25 said:
“Be very careful how you answer this, because if the answer is Yes, then what you are really saying is that there is no room for either tolerance or compromise over political differences.”
People have a tendency wrap a bunch of very different kinds of opinions and actions in the vague phrase “political differences” and pretend that means that they all have to be treated the same.
This “wrapping” of opinions and ideas into bundles with a friendly label that you either swallow as a whole or reject altogether is how SJWs ensnare gullible “moderates” – a very useful tool for them. Take 9 reasonable sounding propositions and make the 10th a batshit crazy clanger that promotes your personal idiocy. It takes a lot of vigilance to not fall into this trap.
@Eugine_Nier
> So in particular hospitals should have the right to adopt whatever visitation policy
Yes, they should be, and medical ethics boards should be able to decide who has access to medical records too. However, neither of those things are true, currently they are controlled by marriage. If we are looking for an ideal libertarian world there would be state sanctioning of marriage, but we are dealing with a world in which marriage has legal consequences, and those legal things should be fairly applied.
> Rest of your argument. It appears to be arguing that because some children grow up in bad environments it’s ok to put more children in bad environments
No, I am arguing that Gay families have to be pretty bad before you can deny gay couples children since life is about real choices not choices between ideals. If you want to somehow demonstrate that gay people are terrible parents go right ahead, my horror notwithstanding. But to paint a whole swath of humanity as unfit to parent based only on their sexual preferences, or the gender mix in the home without evidence is ridiculous. And to leave children in cesspools of government care when better alternatives are available is unconscionable.
The simple question is this: do you think that gay couples in civil unions should have the same rights as heterosexual couples in marital unions? Yes or no? If yes then what possible justification is there for calling two legal structures that are identical by different names; and if no then have the balls to come out and say it rather than beating around the bush and pretending that you are all so inclusive.
> And to leave children in cesspools of government care when better alternatives are available is unconscionable.
And yet the wait list for adoption is enormously long. It’s not lack of better alternatives that keeps kids in cesspools of government care. It’s government bureaucracy’s tendency to seek to increase its work.
> But to paint a whole swath of humanity as unfit to parent based only on their sexual preferences, or the gender mix in the home without evidence is ridiculous.
So you believe pedophiles would make just as good parents as non-pedophiles? Or are you going to try to claim that pedophilia is not a “sexual preference”? Incidently, the movement to legitimize pedophilia is already underway.
TriggerFinger: “There is no Constitutional case for it, except in the fevered and senile minds of 5 justices.”
Read the Fourteenth Amendment again, especially the part about equal protection of the law. If the government offers the benefits of marriage to some, it must offer them to all.
“And as for which of my civil rights I am willing to compromise on? Do you have any idea how many times gun rights advocated have swallowed a “compromise” to prevent losing the whole game and told ourselves we would regain our rights through the political (and yes judicial, since we have an enumerated right recognized at the founding of our nation) process rather than deciding that we weren’t going to compromise at all and taking the obvious alternative path?”
As a matter of fact, I do. And you know what it took to throw a big wrench in the gears? Heller, that’s what. One role of the courts in our system is to protect the civil rights of Americans…from anything and everything, including the majority of Americans.
When you have anti-gay hysteria drummed up by the religious Right – and that’s what the various campaigns to enact same-sex marriage prohibitions in the various state Constitutions amounted to – then “persuasion and rational discussion” have already gone out the window. When people feel that war has been declared on them, they fight back.
One definition of a civil right is a right which the state may not validly infringe. Civil rights are outside the realm of the legislative process. That’w why Citizens United was decided as it was: the legislative process led to an infringement on the right to make political speech. The Constitution’s enumeration of civil rights in the Bill of Rights is explicitly not the end of the discussion,as the Tenth Amendment itself makes clear.
So no, the political process is the wrong place to hash out civil rights. History shows that the majority is precisely the ones from whom the rights of individuals must be protected most.
@Jessica: “No, I am arguing that Gay families have to be pretty bad before you can deny gay couples children since life is about real choices not choices between ideals.”
No one is “denying” children to gay families. Biology is denying children to gay couples, and there are biological ways around that. What we’re discussing here is how society evaluates what the best possible environment for a child without a family to be adopted into. Remember what I said about thinking of the child’s welfare first? Try it. It might give you perspective.
I second @Eugine_Nier’s point about the wait list for adoption. We’re not exactly starved for candidate families who want to adopt under current rules.
TriggerFinger: “please don’t accuse me of being a religious bigot”
TriggerFinger: “If I was the religious bigot you seem to be accusing me of”
TriggerFinger: “demanded that I answer your implied accusation of bigotry”
TriggerFinger: “There’s a rational, non-bigoted reason for the difference in law. ”
Me: ” If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine, but don’t act surprised when your debating opponents lump you in with all the bigots. You haven’t delineated any truly rational reasons other than “it’s always been done that way”, so it’s not surprising that Occam’s Razor gets applied.”
Then you accuse me of calling you a bigot, then when I said I didn’t you doubled down. I have no idea whether you are are not, but (a) methinks you doth protest too much; and (b) whether or not you are a bigot, you certainly have reading comprehension problems.
@Patrick: “So yes, marriage needs to be redefined precisely because there is nothing else equal to it. If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine, but don’t act surprised when your debating opponents lump you in with all the bigots.”
Turns out you did use that word after all.
@Eugine_Nier
And yet the wait list for adoption is enormously long
I certainly agree that government really messes up the adoption process, but the fact is that in America there are five times as many kids in government care as there are women who apply for adoption, and that doesn’t include the literally millions of destitute children overseas in need of good families. Moreover, you offer no evidence that heterosexual couples should be given preference over gay couples irrespective of the numbers. I see no reason for that at all.
> So you believe pedophiles would make just as good parents as non-pedophiles?
Is your contention that gay parents are more likely to abuse their children or perform various other criminal acts? I would not deny pedophiles the right to adopt based on their sexual preferences but on their criminal activities. Felons are not allowed to adopt children for a good reason.
@TriggerFinger
> No one is “denying” children to gay families. Biology is denying children to gay couples
As I am sure you know the context was adoption, and gay couples are indeed denied children very frequently. As to your biology argument, lesbian couples frequently give birth to babies. Sure they don’t have any sperm, but lets face it, sperm is not something in short supply in the world.
However, it seems this has degenerated into an argument for argument sake. I notice for example that Eugine didn’t answer what is really the fundamental question: should gay civil unions have the same rights and hetero marital unions, nor answered the consequential follow up questions. So if you want to argue for the sake or arguing go right ahead. Personally I think Eich’s contribution to that cause was repugnant, though I certainly agree he should have the right to make it.
I might add that Eich is also responsible for imposing on all of us the absolutely dreadful JavaScript language. And for that he should certainly be derided. OMG, way to ignore fifty years of research into programming languages….
I’ll note here that a reply to TriggerFinger is stuck in moderation.
@TriggerFinger:
Yes. By way of explanation about how when you spout the same verbiage as others you will often get lumped in with them, after you complained 4 times about being called a bigot by your debating opponents.
So, to reiterate — no, I did not call you a bigot, and I’ve even explained multiple times exactly how it went down. At this point, though, your behavior can best be described as mendacious.
@Jay: RE the 14th Amendment, find me anyone who wrote at the time and was involved in the drafting who said that if the amendment passed, men would marry men and women would marry women. The government offers the benefits of marriage to everyone. Any man can marry any woman, presuming both are willing and eligible according to state law. (Are you going to argue that prohibitions on marriage between brother and sister should be removed next?) You cannot show any form of original intent among the drafters of that amendment to create a Constitutional right to gay marriage because it does not exist.
As for Heller. You do realize I was blogging about that case when it was still called Parker, right? I am familiar with the principal of defending civil rights through the courts when you have a case. There is a clear and undeniable case for gun rights, as Parker/Heller vindicated. The case for gay marriage as a Constitutional right does not exist. This is a moral case for something like marriage, and rational arguments both for and against. There is no basis for Constitutional protection as a civil right. None. If you wish there was, pass an amendment to that effect and with that specific intent.
You point out the religious right drumming up campaigns to pass Constitutional amendments to block gay marriage. Why did that happen? Because judges were imposing gay marriages on those states. The people objected, reasonably, to having a few people make sweeping changes to the law for partisan political purposes. Amendments were passed to prevent judges from doing that in some states, but not all. Both sides felt war was being declared on them, and both sides had a case. (Only the judges are fairly described as the aggressors, though).
I would applaud your citation of the 10th amendment, except that you don’t actually understand it. There is no right to marriage. States have the power to legally define relationships that they choose to recognize as marriage and extend legal benefits to those in such relationships. Judges do NOT have the power to rewrite those legal definitions. The 14th Amendment was NOT passed to enable gay marriage; it was passed to bar racial discrimination, and while there are precedents citing that amendment relating to marriage, those precedents — until very recently — cite it to overturn rulings on racial restrictions on marriage, not anything related to the gender of the bridge or groom. Original intent matters.
@Jessica: Yes, the context was adoption, where choosing the best possible home for the child should take precedence over giving a baby to a gay couple because social justice.
@Patrick: Except I have been very careful not to “spout the same verbiage as others” on this topic, as those who have been paying attention to my actual positions can see. I stand by what I said, including calling out those who were carefully trying to imply their accusations without actually stating them outright.
@Jay Maynard
> Read the Fourteenth Amendment again, especially the part about equal protection of the law. If the government offers the benefits of marriage to some, it must offer them to all.
You do realize that interpretation is so broad it could be used to mean anything. For example, people who haven’t married are denied the benefits of marriage, according to your logic that violates equal protection under the law. Generalizing a bit, how about pedophiles, since its illegal for them to even exist.
@Jessica Boxer
> I would not deny pedophiles the right to adopt based on their sexual preferences but on their criminal activities.
So if their activities were legalized, you’d have no problem letting them adopt. Also, I notice you’ve been conflating two meanings of the words gay/pedophile:
1) Someone who desires to have sex with people of the same sex/children
2) Someone who has had sex with people of the same sex/children
> I notice for example that Eugine didn’t answer what is really the fundamental question: should gay civil unions have the same rights and hetero marital unions
I thought the answer was obvious, for one thing they shouldn’t be adopting kids. Frankly, I don’t see a good reason for civil unions to exist at all.
@Patrick:
Jessica said: “But there is a gigantic difference between private arrangements and public laws. Make it all private and I am with you. But if the government is giving these types of rights to one group of couples it is simply a religious judgement to not give them to others.
It isn’t stoning to death, but it is a very significantly impactful imposition on people’s lives when it is completely unnecessary. I don’t understand why you would even object except out of some religious or moral disapproval of homosexuality. And frankly, it is none of your damn business.”
Me: “And please don’t accuse me of being a religious bigot on this issue, or of trying to stick my nose into other people’s business. Other people bring up the topic, and seek to compel others to approve of them through judicial fiat and government force. I’m going to be against “compelling others… through government force” consistently.”
Second line was joking back and forth about a comment being number 666, which again carries a religious connotation.
Random832 said: “Your use of the phrase “healthy family environment” sounds like it could be code for the more extreme position that I asked in an earlier comment if you intended to take, so I’ll ask outright: Do you believe that same-sex couples cannot provide such an environment? (to children who are necessarily biologically related to at most only one of them, but still)”
I said: “I find it interesting that you completely ignored the meat of my position and immediately demanded that I answer your implied accusation of bigotry.”
religious judgment… stoning to death… religious or moral disapproval of homosexuality…none of your damn business… code for the more extreme position… and from different individuals slightly later on separate but equal… lump you in with all the bigots.
Yeah, I will stand by my responses to all of those.
On reflection, I would like to apologize to Jessica for accusing her of wanting cake entitlements, when she rejected any claim to cake entitlements early in the discussion. Sorry, Jessica. :)
@esr
Thank you for your thought-out response. I don’t disagree that Tim Hunt was handled poorly, but I do disagree with your assignment of guilt to every single person of my gender.
If ALL of us within the community stood up for each other ::regardless of gender:: when we see incorrect allegations occurring, then problems like Tim Hunt’s attempted lynching would not occur. Tim Hunt was not my responsibility. It WAS, however, the responsibility of the women and men in the room with him to stand up for him, however. I agree it was not handled well and ::should:: have been, but to assign guilt to an entire group of people when I’m not even vaguely involved is pretty unfair. It’s the equivalent of me getting angry at you for that one in ten guys being a creep at a conference and assigning you the guilt for every one of them. It’s not yours. It is yours, however, if I am in a conversation with you and one of your peers comes by and tries to do something inappropriate and you do not reprimand him.
>but I do disagree with your assignment of guilt to every single person of my gender.
As Eugene Nier says, I wasn’t assigning guilt at all, merely suggesting precautionary measures.
> I certainly agree that government really messes up the adoption process, but the fact is that in America there are five times as many kids in government care as there are women who apply for adoption.
This has nothing to do with the original “I have the names of 47 Social Justice Warrios working in the State Department in this envelope!” nonsense, but I fear there’s a misleading claim here.
Most adoptions are by couples or families: single people are routinely discouraged, and sometimes even barred, from applying for adoption, especially for small children. So the “women who apply for adoptioni” is misleading. I know several single women, including some professional ones, who tried and found it extraordinarily difficult to adopt, and one who only succeeded by adopting quite ill Asian children. I also bless her, the woman is a good engineer and a saint with those kids.
Most of the kids in foster care are not infants nor have their parents surrendered custody willingly, so there’s a strong chance they’ll be returned to the custody of their biological parents at some point.. This profoundly discourages adoption. Many of these children have profound physical, educational, or behavioral problems that also hamper most adoptions. Even generous potential parents can be understandably unwilling to take on the extra burdens: this means that the waiting period for healthy, “normal” children can be incredibly long for the parents, and the wait for the unhealthy children long for the kids.
It’s also normally very difficult indeed to adopt children from foster care, and gay adooption is still outright banned in several states. So please do not try to blame the numbers of children in foster care on gay partners not being willing to take up the slack. The difficulties of making a gay adoption have been aggravated by the lack of marriage based privileges in taxes, in inheritance law, in shared custody, and in health insurance. In the last case I saw personally, each gay parent had to assign power of attorney to their partner in order to ensure the ability to sign for children’s medical treatment, which was awkward and confusing to schools and medical facilities working with the children. Legal parental rights were vested in only one member of the pair, so there was a real risk that if the parent with full adoptive rights died, the more remote family rather than the partner would receive family custody of the child. It required extraordinary caution: fortunately, the lawyer who handled it was *very* good, and made sure to sew up all the possible loose ends.
> I do disagree with your assignment of guilt to every single person of my gender.
Esr isn’t assigning guilt, he’s taking precautions for self defense.
@Jay Maynard, how am I supposed to distinguish between someone who is trying to get in my pants and someone actually interested in my viewpoint?
The answer is, I can’t. I can, however, take it on good faith that that person is LIKELY not full of ulterior motives but still protect myself by remaining in public instead of a hotel room. After about 6 months of conversation or so, I can assume that I’m probably safe (still not meeting in a hotel room) and then proceed to mentoring/being mentored.
@Marlow Weston
> how am I supposed to distinguish between someone who is trying to get in my pants and someone actually interested in my viewpoint?
Are you saying there are significant numbers of male rapists in tech? Or are you worried that men will try to seduce you? If the latter, refuse to be seduced.
@Jessica Boxer
In fairness, he had no idea how successful it would be and he was rushed into it. All told, he did a pretty good job. The damages wrought by C are vastly greater. If you want to blame somebody, blame the adopters for turning a weekend project into an industry standard.
@Eugene
I take a male bodyguard equivalent with me to every tech conference I attend now. Otherwise I’ve been stalked, groped, and repeatedly hit on.
@TriggerFinger:
Sorry, but the verbiage about how it’s not discriminatory is exactly the same as many of the arguments put forth by those who, for example, don’t even want civil unions allowed, so I completely disagree with your characterization.
@Marlow Weston:
Not necessarily. Geeks doing and thinking geek things might be happy to pile on if you point out the inappropriateness of something that bothers you, but in some cases may be completely oblivious to those things because they are not attuned to them and their entire attention is elsewhere. I realize that in some cases it may be legitimately scary to assert your agency, but in some cases that may be a necessary first step to preserving it.
That sucks. Pepper spray is good.
@Patrick: What you and others seem to mean is that if someone disagrees with your opinion on this topic, that automatically makes them guilty of bad motives, and that you have no problem explaining to me how awful my motives are rather than asking what my motives and positions actually are.
Now, since I don’t follow “religious right” types (being a libertarian atheist, remember?) I suppose it’s possible there is similar verbiage being used, but if so, have you considered the possibility that 1) I arrived at similar verbiage from an independent examination of the evidence and 2) maybe those arguments aren’t all based on religious and moral objections to homosexuality after all? I mean, I’m sure some are, but that’s not where I am coming from at all. I approach the topic from a legal and Constitutional perspective, and it’s plain to me what the right answer in those terms is. That answer is: go to the legislature and update the law. That’s why we have a legislature.
@ Marlow Weston
Welcome to A&D. It appears that you have a first-person vantage point from which to comment on this topic. If so, then your participation is greatly appreciated. Most of us here understand that the overwhelming majority of women in tech are not conspiring to target or ruin anyone, and that they have every right to expect a level playing field within the industry, both as professionals and as women coexisting in a majority male environment.
It may be helpful for you to know that Eric’s precautionary warning resonates with us largely because we perceive a serious and harmful phenomena evolving within our current culture; namely that government policies and major media messaging are proactively encouraging an epidemic of victimology in the US. One manifestation of this is the radicalization of feminism in service to political power aggrandizement and a favored tactic is to facilitate character assassinations of prominent male targets. If true, the real danger of this tactic is that it systemically poisons the water for all parties moving forward. This is a non trivial impact and it will take intelligence and courage to beat back the corrosive effects of this type of dishonesty and underhandedness. The only way that happens is if we find common ground and unite against the malefactors.
@Patrick Maupin
> Sorry, but the verbiage about how it’s not discriminatory is exactly the same as many of the arguments put forth by those who, for example, don’t even want civil unions allowed, so I completely disagree with your characterization.
Before getting bogged down into pointless discussions as to whether or not someone is “discriminatory”, let’s see if we can define the term and and see under what circumstances it is a bad thing. The dictionary definition of “discrimination” is:
The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
Wait, that sounds like a good thing. In fact the idea that being able to make fine distinctions is bad, is in fact Gramscian volk-Marxism.
@Eugine: heh. I considered pointing out the meaning of “discriminatory”, but couldn’t come up with reasonable wording. You did it better than I would have,
>Of course it is! It is politics and all politics is high risk. Evidence? The outcome is clear evidence.
And now you are doubling down on the circular logic. I assume practicing Judaism in Nazi-Germany was also to swim with sharks. After all, history is pretty good evidence that it was high risk.
@TriggerFinger
“I don’t know if same sex couples can or cannot provide a healthy family environment. I don’t think anyone else knows either.”
We have had same sex marriages for 15 years now. We can say that experience shows same sex couples give the same healthy family environment as hetero couples.
As for role models, many such families consist on gays AND lesbians (>2 adults).
@esr:
>esr wrote:
“What women’s groups are out there saying “We reject identity politics and perpetual grievance-collecting?” Who is standing up for sane equity feminism against the crazed third-wavers?”
These are some of them, and have been speaking loud and clear for a long time now. (They may not be “women in tech” but they keep calling 3rd wavers BS time and time again)
Christina Hoff Sommers:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLytTJqkSQqtr7BqC1Jf4nv3g2yDfu7Xmd
Lauren Southern
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCla6APLHX6W3FeNLc8PYuvg/videos
Karen Straughan:
https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat/playlists
Shoe0nHead:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Shoe0nHead/videos
@winter: You’ll forgive me for not just taking your word for it. You’ll have to cite evidence (not anecdotes, please). Particularly about those >2 adult families…
Aaron on 2015-11-11 at 02:32:43 said:
>esr wrote: “What women’s groups are out there saying “We reject identity politics and perpetual grievance-collecting?” Who is standing up for sane equity feminism against the crazed third-wavers?”
These are some of them, and have been speaking loud and clear for a long time now. (They may not be “women in tech” but they keep calling 3rd wavers BS time and time again)
Linked some of these before. Those punching hardest now against current rape hysteria are Ashe Showe and Cathy Young –
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/author/ashe-schow
https://cathyyoung.wordpress.com/
@Marlow Weston
>how am I supposed to distinguish between someone who is trying to get in my pants and someone actually interested in my viewpoint?
I am a bit weirded out by these problems. Related problem I read on the internet: women being afraid to speak their opinion on meetings. I mean, looks like many people are working in some sort of a super social clusterfsck type work where everything is discussed to death and somehow it is necessary to gather multiple opinions about a todo? Why? Brainstorming is proven to be inefficient and what works well is simply everybody doing their own tasks, distributed by a project manager. I am a fairly established man in my own tiny field and nobody asks my opinion because it is not a friggin’ debating society: they give me tasks, they send me requests, they want me to use my knowledge to solve their problems, not to discuss stuff.
Is it possible that women tend to be attracted to more social aspects of tech perhaps? Or this open source stuff is more exploratory, more research like than say working on salesforce.com?
TheDividualist on 2015-11-11 at 03:31:33 said:
@Marlow Weston
>how am I supposed to distinguish between someone who is trying to get in my pants and someone actually interested in my viewpoint?
I am a bit weirded out by these problems.
What is actually weird? All of these things are a part of what we used to call growing up. The process of maturing into an autonomous adult that no longer requires a parent or a guardian to oversee all of your activities/interactions to ensure you don’t do anything stupid.
This is the process #SJWs have skipped – they jumped straight from puberty to expecting e-begging to provide all their needs without learning anything in between.
@TriggerFinger on 2015-11-11 at 02:39:42 said:
“@winter: You’ll forgive me for not just taking your word for it. You’ll have to cite evidence (not anecdotes, please). Particularly about those >2 adult families…”
Co-parenting has been made law in the Netherlands. I am very surprised that you do not know any of this. Gay marriage is quite common around the world. You can find some links below. Most of the links available are in Dutch, so I had to make a selection of English articles which are not the best.
But to come back to your objections against same-sex marriages:
1) Marriage is intended for raising children:
Many same sex couples raise children, often the biological children of one of the partners
2) Children need role models from both sexes
In many same sex families, both biological parents participate in the care for the children
3) Same sex parents do not give the “right” environment for children to grow up
All the evidence and experience tells us that this is NOT true. As you have no evidence for this “believe”, and there is massive evidence against it, this is simply bogus.
SAME-SEX PARENTS IN THE NETHERLANDS
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/33453/Same-sex%20parents%20in%20the%20Netherlands.pdf?sequence=1
These Five People Are About to Have a Baby Together
http://www.vice.com/read/a-child-in-the-netherlands-is-going-to-have-five-parents-876
Parental rights to be extended for LGBT families in the Netherlands
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/10/24/parental-rights-to-be-extended-for-lgbt-families-in-the-netherlands/
@TriggerFinger on 2015-11-11 at 02:39:42 said:
“@winter: You’ll forgive me for not just taking your word for it. You’ll have to cite evidence (not anecdotes, please). Particularly about those >2 adult families…”
And here is a personal report of such a father, Geer Oskam:
About how 2 women and me got pregnant; delivered a baby; and now, how the three of us are taking care of our little girl.
http://goodmenproject.com/author/geer-oskam/
@TriggerFinger on 2015-11-11 at 02:39:42 said:
“@winter: You’ll forgive me for not just taking your word for it. You’ll have to cite evidence (not anecdotes, please). Particularly about those >2 adult families…”
Convinced?
Traditional marriage was a standardized insurance-like contract that was required prior to having sex. It was meant to strike a suitable and well-defined compromise between the interests of the husband, the wife, their respective families and their eventual children. It was not as much a celebration of two young people’s love for each other, as it was a way to heap a large battery of responsibilities on them.
Modern marriage isn’t marriage, just like a corpse is not a person.
@TriggerFinger on 2015-11-11 at 02:39:42 said:
“@winter: You’ll forgive me for not just taking your word for it. You’ll have to cite evidence (not anecdotes, please). Particularly about those >2 adult families…”
It occurred to me that viewers of Fox news and other conservatives in the US may dismiss Dutch examples on the grounds that the Dutch are insane and murder their old people to save money (aka, allow euthanasia). And we still have the case of the idea-fixe that same-sex parents are bad for children.
So, here is an Australian review:
Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) Parented Families
https://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Files/LGBT-Families-Lit-Review.pdf
>how 2 women and me got pregnant; delivered a baby; and now, how the three of us are taking care of our little girl.
A man and two women all get pregnant, and the result is a single child? What is this sorcery?
@Anonymous
“A man and two women all get pregnant, and the result is a single child? What is this sorcery?”
You know, these hyperboles people use. It seems to have become a common expression in the Netherlands. Has something to do with feelings and emotions and not wanting to be left out.
In reality, only one woman was pregnant. She and the father were BFF in high school (both were out as homosexuals at the time) and decided to get a baby when they turned 30.
“Read the Fourteenth Amendment again, especially the part about equal protection of the law. If the government offers the benefits of marriage to some, it must offer them to all.”
The Fourteenth Amendment, like the rest of the Constitution, says nothing about sexual preference. If you want it to say that, pass an Amendment. However, since with two exceptions, every instance of putting gay marriage to a vote at the state level (including that supposed bastion of liberalism, CA) failed by large margins, you know perfectly well you can’t do that. Hence your preference for judicial fiat.
And this is perfectly relevant to this discussion, since the issue here is also about a rabid minority abusing the legal system against the majority.
@SDN
“However, since with two exceptions, every instance of putting gay marriage to a vote at the state level (including that supposed bastion of liberalism, CA) failed by large margins, you know perfectly well you can’t do that. Hence your preference for judicial fiat.”
That is a strange outcome as more US citizens support same sex marriages than oppose it by a wide margin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States
So, why are the state votes showing the opposite of the popular support?
@ESR: “Hey, everybody who has showed up here pissed off at the SJWs ought to drop a couple bucks a month into my Patreon feed. That’d show ’em!”
And now we know why you cooked up this ridiculous conspiracy theory.
TriggerFinger, before you accept winter’s studies, I recommend you take a look at who’s funding them. As we’ve seen with many fields, you can find a study that says “conservatism is a mental illness”, “the Medieval Warm Period never existed”, etc. when Soros is paying the freight.
Data will confess to anything if it’s tortured enough.
@Eugine_Nier:
Wanker.
@TriggerFinger:
You admire the tendentious insipid conflation of “treating blacks differently than whites” with “I like vanilla better than chocolate” while admitting that, despite your obvious skill at redirection, you couldn’t have done better?
Whatever.
In previous comment:
s/treating blacks differently than whites/the law treating blacks differently than whites/
Just to preempt the most obvious stupid pushback…
@SDN
“TriggerFinger, before you accept winter’s studies, I recommend you take a look at who’s funding them. ”
That is saying that EVERYBODY will lie about EVERYTHING ALWAYS whenever it suits their cause. I can tell you not everybody is like you.
But the links I gave were showing the existence of LGB couples co-parenting their biological children in “families” with >2 adults. If you want to deny that these exist, then you are denying simple observations made by many different people.
If you were referring to the literature review commissioned by The Australian Psychological Society, then you are telling us that both ALL of the Australian Psychologists and ALL the authors of the studies reviewed are corrupt to the bone. Which can only mean that Australia is corrupt to the bone. That again is showing a level of paranoia only seen in fundamentalists and the schizophrenic.
The multitude of polls referred to in the Wikipedia page are easily to find and check online. If you do not trust them, that means all of the US polling organizations are corrupt to the bone and will falsify their poll results. See my remark at the end of the previous paragraph.
My longer comment is awaiting moderation
@SDN
“Data will confess to anything if it’s tortured enough.”
Which tends to be visible to the trained eye. Actually, that tends to stand out quite clearly to the trained eye.
> As Eugene Nier says, I wasn’t assigning guilt at all, merely suggesting precautionary measures.
Then why’d you say you were assigning guilt? The excuse that “(Don’t like that, ladies? Tough. You were just fine with collective guilt when the shoe was on the other foot. Enjoy your turn!)” was only directed towards the eeeeevil feminists doesn’t hold water, when the collective punishment (and it ceases to be a precautionary measure when you start talking about guilt) you are proposing is not.
>Then why’d you say you were assigning guilt? The excuse that “(Don’t like that, ladies? Tough. You were just fine with collective guilt when the shoe was on the other foot. Enjoy your turn!)” was only directed towards the eeeeevil feminists doesn’t hold water, when the collective punishment (and it ceases to be a precautionary measure when you start talking about guilt) you are proposing is not.
I’m just going to note that this is so convoluted and obstreperous an attempt to make trouble out of nothing that I am officially refusing to touch it.
> 3) Same sex parents do not give the “right” environment for children to grow up
> All the evidence and experience tells us that this is NOT true. As you have no evidence for this “believe”, and there is massive evidence against it, this is simply bogus.
Don’t bother. No amount of evidence is good enough, and anyone who questions why it’s his starting assumption in the first place just gets accused of accusing him of bigotry.
@Random832
“Don’t bother. No amount of evidence is good enough, and anyone who questions why it’s his starting assumption in the first place just gets accused of accusing him of bigotry.”
But I DO think he is a bigot. And I DO think all his arguments are excuses for his prejudices. I just wanted to make that abundantly clear to the readers.
> The Fourteenth Amendment, like the rest of the Constitution, says nothing about sexual preference.
It doesn’t say anything about race, either. The natural conclusion is that it’s meant to apply to any aspect of someone which might prompt someone to wish to deny them equal protection under the law, rather than an enumerated list.
I don’t see how it’s convoluted at all. I just think you’ve been a bit ignorant of how your article comes across, and I’ve been trying to point that out to you. Another example is how baffled you seemed when Marlow Weston accused you of refusing to mentor women, when your anonymous friend (who you seemed to endorse 100%) did exactly that.
Talking about “collective guilt” makes absolutely no sense when you intend your recommendation as a precautionary measure rather than a punishment, so people should be forgiven for assuming you did mean it as a punishment; that’s all I’m saying. I’m not trying to “make trouble”.
@Winter: Thanks for the links. Since you were posting them around 3am US time, I haven’t had a chance to read them yet. But after reading this: “But I DO think he is a bigot. And I DO think all his arguments are excuses for his prejudices. I just wanted to make that abundantly clear to the readers.” … I don’t think I really want to bother, since you aren’t really interested in having a rational discussion but rather in attempting to engage in ad hominem. And after @Random832: “Don’t bother. No amount of evidence is good enough, and anyone who questions why it’s his starting assumption in the first place just gets accused of accusing him of bigotry.” I think this discussion has reached it’s natural conclusion.
I invite the readers to consider the discussion carefully and identify, if possible, which statements and positions I have taken are evidence of bigotry. Note that “but you oppose gay marriage!” is not a response that fulfills that requirement, since 1) I don’t actually oppose most elements of it, I simply oppose obtaining them through judicial fiat rather than legislative act; 2) mere opposition to a political goal does not a bigot make, even if in fact I did oppose gay marriage — and I will concede for this purpose that I oppose “gay marriage” but support “civil unions”; and 3) I have explained my reasons for my position, which have nothing to do with religion or animus of any kind.
For bonus points, explain why my position makes me a bigot but does not make either of the Clintons and Obama (who all claimed to oppose gay marriage at one point in their career) also bigots.
I will point out that I saw Winter’s first post with links immediately before going to bed around 3am and had at that time intended to read the studies later today, so it’s rather unfortunate for him and Random832 that he chose to foreclose the discussion between then and now.
Let’s look at the Fourteenth Amendment, shall we?
Section 1 (the others aren’t relevant to this discussion) states:
You’re right. It doesn’t say a thing about sexual orientation. Doesn’t say anything about gender, ethnicity, or race, either. What it does say is “all persons” and “any person”. No amending needed…unless you’re going to seriously argue that “all persons” does not include LGBT?
The Amendment is quite clear. All citizens are to be treated equally before the law. No ifs, ands, or buts. If the Legislature won’t abide by that principle, then it is up to the courts to force them to do so. That is one role of the courts in the American system.
Rights aren’t things to be voted on. If they were, they wouldn’t be rights.
@Patrick: Since your use of the term was intended to conflate my imagined opposition to gay rights with opposition to equal rights for all races, I find the ability to discriminate between those two positions admirable. heh.
“You admire the tendentious insipid conflation of “treating blacks differently than whites” with “I like vanilla better than chocolate” while admitting that, despite your obvious skill at redirection, you couldn’t have done better?”
Just to be clear, you were the one conflating “treating blacks differently than whites” with
maybe we should pass a law through the legislature rather than demanding judges rewrite the law for us“I like vanilla better than chocolate” in this case.Winter, I must note that the upsurge in support among the American public for same-sex marriage is a very recent development, as in the last few years or so.
@TriggerFinger
” I don’t think I really want to bother, since you aren’t really interested in having a rational discussion but rather in attempting to engage in ad hominem. ”
I expressed my believes, but I welcome evidence that these are wrong. Furthermore, I have answered your requests very seriously.
I can get into a serious rational discussion with people I think are under delusions. I am always open to be proven wrong about my opinions about other people.
@Jay: And I suspect that upsurge has been driven by a massive propaganda campaign in schools. Since I’m not actually in school anymore, I can’t prove it by personal experience, but I’ve seen a lot of indications that that is going on. The SJW are the final product of the Left’s long march through the institutions.
You may well be right. David Brin asked me on G+ yesterday why I thought professionals were turning left. I didn’t reply that I thought it was because the leftist takeover of the education system, though I did consider it.
(And my Fourteenth Amendment reply is in moderation. Wish I knew what I was saying that triggered it.)
@TriggerFinger:
SO are you claiming now that your opposition to the government giving the same recognition to two gay people who commit to each other as they do to two heterosexuals who commit to each other is just a figment of my imagination?
@TriggerFinger
“And I suspect that upsurge has been driven by a massive propaganda campaign in schools.”
So what? It is not that the anti camp has been silent and restricted itself to proven facts. No amount of propaganda can change the facts. The facts being that in the USA, Civil Unions are not equal to marriage, and that same-sex marriages are NOT bad for marriage in general and NOT bad for the children.
Obviously, you do not want to look at evidence of this.
@Winter: I will consider reading your studies and continuing the discussion later this evening (my time) if you apologize for your remark: “But I DO think he is a bigot. And I DO think all his arguments are excuses for his prejudices. I just wanted to make that abundantly clear to the readers.” and promise to engage in good faith.
Since your english doesn’t seem perfect, it may help you to understand that “bigot” does not mean merely “someone who is under delusions”. It is an offensive and loaded term that amounts (particularly in the US) to attempting to shut down discussion by linking the target of that term to racial hatred and the legacy of slavery, as others in this discussion have been doing with varying degrees of subtlety.
And with that remark I am done with the discussion until this evening.
Good luck, ESR, and thank you for the discussion.
OK, one more quick one on the way out the door.
@Patrick: I have explained my position previously. It’s not a position that can be fairly represented as “support” or “oppose”. I have also stated, and repeat here, that the taking of a political position on this issue is not evidence of bigotry, and I invite you to explain why both Clintons and Obama were not bigots when they opposed gay marriage. And remember, the male Clinton — by which I mean William — actually signed the Defense of Marriage Act.
@TriggerFinger
” It is an offensive and loaded term that amounts (particularly in the US) to attempting to shut down discussion by linking the target of that term to racial hatred and the legacy of slavery, as others in this discussion have been doing with varying degrees of subtlety.”
In no way did I want to imply or suggest that you are a racist or would in any way condone slavery.
I used this definition of:
bigot
noun big·ot \?bi-g?t\
: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)
… gah. Each time I make a last post for now the refresh brings something I need to respond to.
@Winter: my last post to you was written before reading your last post to me, just so that’s clear. The offer remains open but was NOT prompted by your “Obviously, you do not want to look at evidence of this.”
I’ll agree that I don’t particularly want to look at evidence on this issue, on either side, since I really honestly don’t care that much. I don’t vote on gay marriage issues either way. It’s a debate that I usually watch from the sidelines (as opposed to say gun rights, on which I actively and deliberately engage). I am, however, allergic to people misrepresenting the issue as inevitably centered around religion. There are rational reasons to be skeptical and to move carefully.
That said, in the interests of a civil discussion, I am willing to look at evidence with someone I am discussing the issue with in good faith.
And now, really, seriously gone for the day.
GAH. One more really quick:
@Winter: Note that that entire definition is completely wrong for me. I do not “strongly and unfairly dislike” non-heterosexuals. I do not “hate or refuse to accept” members of that group. And note the reference to “racial” at the end of the definition.
I have a political position on gay marriage based on rational views and preferences, not hatred. That is all, and it is not evidence of bigotry.
I will note that you attempted to explain yourself, but did not actually apologize, too.
@Nop
Fuck off wanker.
@Random832
You’ve read an awful lot into what Eric said. What does it even mean to ask if he “[meant] it as a punishment”? He means that certain people should undertake a precaution, and if it feels like punishment then tough titties, because what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
@Jessica Boxer
So, if they went in for a whole-brain MRI in the year 2100 and the doctors diagnosed them with strong pedophilic tendencies, how would you feel about them adopting children?
@Winter
So, if we unpack your definition, your complaint boils down to TriggerFinger’s feeling toward others being unfair. Now tell me, what are the rules of fairness governing feelings?
@TriggerFinger
I have not called you a bigot. I have repeatedly denied calling you a bigot. You, not I, are the one who seems to believe that the things I have said, which are undeniably true, make you a bigot.
Where’s your evidence that children do need to be raised by heterosexual couples?
@rogue_philologist
“your complaint boils down to TriggerFinger’s feeling toward others being unfair.”
That is inherent in the word “prejudice” that underlies the meaning of “Bigot”. It must be said that what I think about people I only know from comments on sites like this is rather fluent. There is little information to go on and I will happily adapt my opinion and believes about other people with every comment.
> Since your english doesn’t seem perfect, it may help you to understand that “bigot” does not mean merely “someone who is under delusions”. It is an offensive and loaded term that amounts (particularly in the US) to attempting to shut down discussion by linking the target of that term to racial hatred and the legacy of slavery, as others in this discussion have been doing with varying degrees of subtlety.
Using this “offensive and loaded term” argument against someone who hasn’t used the word is a kafkatrap. You’re equivocating between the things they have said (which you claim amount to an accusation of bigotry under some other definition of the word), and this meaning.
Winter fell for your bait. I did not.
Again, that “massive upsurge in support” should have translated to more victories at the ballot box.
Unless, of course, the fact that poll responses can be assumed to not be anonymous (they have your phone number, if nothing else) vs the anonymity of the voting booth reveals something about what those polls are really worth.
Note that there is nothing wrong about being prejudiced. The important part is whether you are right and wrong about things, not how you arrived at your conclusions, and particularly not how the thought police thinks you arrived at your conclusions.
Getting things right with limited data means you’re either lucky or smart. Getting things wrong is never good, but it’s more excusable if you lack info than if you’re an idiot. Not being able to mean anything about what might happen until after it results are in – the opposite of prejudice – isn’t virtuous. It’s just idiocy.
People who use ‘prejudiced’ as a term of abuse aren’t necessarily both imbeciles and totalitarians, but they are invariably one of the two.
> Again, that “massive upsurge in support” should have translated to more victories at the ballot box.
There are lots of mechanisms for actual popular support to fail to translate into legislative victories. Poor turnout by one side (or unusually high turnout by the other). Gerrymandering, for anything but a referendum.
@ Jay Maynard
The Fourteenth Amendment reads . . .
“No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States”
And yet felons are denied the privilege of voting and owning firearms.
It also reads . . .
“nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law”
Which could be interpreted to mean that government can screw you over as long as it makes it a law first.
“nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Which could be interpreted to mean that a bad law screws everyone equally.
And Washington is turning out legislation that is measured in thousands of pages in length. Is there any doubt that there is some bad law included within those monstrosities?
De facto, gay people can get “married” any time they want; it’s just that government jackboots may show up and kick your ass legally if they want to. We have too much government, not too much bigotry. But if I’m wrong and your bigoted neighbor shows up to wreck your wedding, you have my permission to shoot them.
@Random832: Against my better judgement, I will respond. You said that you thought one of my statements was “code for the more extreme position”. In the US, for at least the past 8 years or so, political discourse on almost any topic has followed roughly the following pattern.
D: “Republicans are racists because they oppose Obama on issue x.”
R: “What? I said I opposed Obama on issue x, which has nothing to do with race, and I haven’t said anything about race. I’m talking about issues.”
D: (if forced to respond, which is rare) “Look, you said y, which is code for the more extreme position z, so you are a racist (and we have completely forgotten about issue x at this point).”
I don’t speak in code to hide animus against anyone. I have a political position. That is all. I don’t think I’ve said anything about my feelings on this issue because I don’t have any strong feelings on it, aside from being allergic to people lumping me in with religious bigots (for which I have already posted evidence).
@rogue_philologist: You make a good point, but I have to clarify that Winter’s assumption that I even HAVE strong feelings on this topic is incorrect, so it’s not just that I have the right to personal feelings but that he’s assuming things about how I feel that are incorrect.
@Random832 re evidence: It is the responsibility of the person proposing the change to provide evidence for their position. Winter has done so. Since this is not really my topic of interest, I don’t have a list of citations handy for the opposition position handy; I may do some research while reading Winter’s citations later.
I do feel that thousands of years of tradition and nature are to a degree self-evident and possess a natural inertia that hardly needs explanation and should not be lightly dismissed. Furthermore, I have not taken the position that two natural parents are necessary to raise children in a healthy environment; I’ve stated that I suspect it would be helpful, that I don’t know the answer, and that in adoption cases I would prefer to place children in the best possible environment for them rather than giving children to same-sex couples because social justice.
Note that none of those feelings involved hatred, dislike, religion, or even strong preferences.
>Read the Fourteenth Amendment again, especially the part about equal protection of the law. If the government offers the benefits of marriage to some, it must offer them to all.
I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit. I’ve got some questions I can’t really answer.
When you read the 14th Amendment sufficiently broadly, very strange things happen.
Can the government offer any benefit, to anyone, that some people are not able to accept? That some people are not qualified to accept?
Is it valid for, say, Medicaid to pay for a procedure that is male only? Female only?
Is it reasonable for a law to be worded in such a way that only certain people quality for benefits?
Where does it stop?
To persist in that direction…
If your reading is so broad that you insist that the gov’t must treat everyone exactly the same, that is, not follow the same rules toward everyone, but extend literally the same treatment to everyone… Oh, that smacks of enforced equality of outcome. Well we know that’s bad. But how far do we walk it back?
@rogue_philologist
> So, if they went in for a whole-brain MRI in the year 2100 and the doctors diagnosed them with strong pedophilic tendencies, how would you feel about them adopting children?
Were they frogmarched into the hospital by government thugs? Or did they go in for medical treatment only to have their doctor-patient privacy violated by dreadful laws? And if the doctor found in the same MRI a propensity for violent rage that had an 80% chance of leading to murder, or a smaller than normal moral compass, would the government march them off to a prison camp for the protection of society?
What a terrifying question. They should make a movie about that — oh wait they already did.
> You said that you thought one of my statements was “code for the more extreme position”.
“Gays shouldn’t be allowed to raise children” – which you had not said outright at the time, but have said since – is a more extreme position than “Gays shouldn’t get married”. This is true regardless of whether one characterizes either as “bigoted”.
Or do you think “extreme” is likewise an “offensive and loaded term” that draws me into your word games?
@Jay: As you well know, the 14th Amendment was instituted in response to denying equal protection of the law to former slaves on the basis of their race. No one at the time it was drafted imagined that “equal protection of the law” could be twisted to require states to allow men to marry men and women to marry women. Original intent matters. Gay marriage is not, and never has been, a right… because “marriage” has had a simple and obvious definition involving a man and a woman for millenia.
It’s possible to make a policy argument for changing the law to accomodate non-heterosexual couples in some fashion, but claiming it is a right under equal protection is absurd.
@Random832: I have never said gays shouldn’t be allowed to raise children.
> I do feel that thousands of years of tradition and nature are to a degree self-evident and possess a natural inertia that hardly needs explanation and should not be lightly dismissed.
It’s being dismissed on the strength of more than adequate evidence that those traditions were built in the first place on the basis of bigotry rather than anything rational.
I think part of the problem is “I don’t know what the supply and demand of children for adoption happens to be” – as far as I know, the situation is such that given a choice between a stable household consisting of two adults with medium income, and on the other hand the foster care system, you’d choose the latter, strongly enough to justify making it difficult to create those stable households in the first place (i.e. has it ever occured to you that not being allowed to be married may be something that causes a couple to be less suitable to raise children, and therefore the latter should not be used as a justification for the former?)
@Random832: I have never said gays shouldn’t be allowed to raise children.
No, just that you “have a suspicion” that they don’t provide a healthy family environment “in its ideal form”. I filtered out the mealy-mouthed qualifications when reading it back to you.
> because “marriage” has had a simple and obvious definition involving a man and a woman for millenia.
Let’s talk about the “simple and obvious” definition that it had in some states for nearly a century after the passage of said amendment. Or is this another thing where you don’t like comparing gay issues to race issues because they make you look bad?
@Random832: “I filtered out the mealy-mouthed qualifications when reading it back to you.”
And in the process transforming a reasonable, rational position about preferences when placing children with potential families for adoption into something I neither said, nor meant, and which you could attack as an extreme position and even characterize as supporting removing biological children from households with one or more gay parent. I’m done responding to you, and participating in this discussion.
> And in the process transforming a reasonable, rational position about preferences when placing children with potential families for adoption
Which, if you’ve forgotten, wasn’t the topic we were discussing. We were discussing how you don’t think they should be married because the purpose of marriage is to produce households capable of raising a child in a healthy family environment, and therefore shouldn’t be extended to couples who cannot possibly qualify, as same-sex couples obviously don’t.
Also, I didn’t respond at the time, but “And note that if one of the parties was found infertile that was often enough to dissolve the marriage.” isn’t relevant since it wasn’t, as far as I know, grounds for a third party (or the state) to object to the marriage.
“As you well know, the 14th Amendment was instituted in response to denying equal protection of the law to former slaves on the basis of their race.”
And if they’d intended to limit it to race, they could easily have made the amendment say so. They did not.
“No one at the time it was drafted imagined that “equal protection of the law” could be twisted to require states to allow men to marry men and women to marry women.”
This argument is exactly as silly as arguing that the Second Amendment does not cover rapid-firing semiautomatic firearms because nobody could imagine them at the time. Or do you only support original intent when it supports your position?
“All persons” means exactly that.
> and which you could attack as an extreme position
Calling a position extreme isn’t an attack.
> and even characterize as supporting removing biological children from households with one or more gay parent
It’s a little bit baffling, to be honest, how you can have one without the other. Remember, you don’t want same-sex couples to be married because they cannot possibly raise a child in a healthy family environment, whereas infertile heterosexual couples are tolerated because, thousands of years ago, it was possible for heterosexual couples to produce a child even if it wasn’t guaranteed.
Responding to 2nd-Amendment-relevant portions only:
@Jay: I can produce multiple quotes from the founders indicating that they felt the 2nd Amendment guaranteed that citizens could own and bear “all the terrible instruments of the soldier”, if I go down one path, or working examples of semiautomatic firearms and even machine guns if I go down the other. It is not necessary to twist words into new meanings. The meaning is plainly there in the 2nd Amendment and always has been. That is not the case for the other topic under discussion.
Honestly I don’t know why I engaged with your ridiculous idea that ability to produce and/or raise children should be a prerequisite for marriage in the first place – a lot of pointless arguing could have been avoided if I’d stuck to arguing against that.
@Random832: “Remember, you don’t want same-sex couples to be married because they cannot possibly raise a child in a healthy family environment,”
I didn’t say that, either. Please stop misrepresenting me, since I am attempting to leave this discussion.
> I didn’t say that, either.
No, you didn’t, but consider that [heterosexual] marriage, unlike adoption, is not granted on a case-by-case basis depending on suitability as parents [or fertility and intention to have children, which aren’t relevant to adoption but would be relevant to marriage as an institution solely directed at supporting people who can have/raise children]
Therefore, if you’re denying it to a class of couples, it follows that you consider that entire class to be wholly unsuited to “production of children raised in a healthy family environment”, the public policy goal you advanced as the reason for the restrictions on marriage, rather than merely less likely on average to be suited to it or whatever other qualifiers you want to tack on to your position.
@Random832: Thank you for admitting to your misrepresentation. I don’t agree with your logic in the rest, but I will not engage with it. Farewell.
I conceded that you didn’t say it, not that it doesn’t follow from other things that you did say.
@Eugine_Nier
> So if their activities were legalized, you’d have no problem letting them adopt.
That is an insane hypothetical. In a world that screwed up I have no idea what would or would not be allowed.
> Also, I notice you’ve been conflating two meanings of the words gay/pedophile:
No, you haven’t made it clear which you mean. Don’t blame me for your lack of precision.
> 1) Someone who desires to have sex with people of the same sex/children
I let the comparison slip before because putting gay and pedophile in the same paragraph isn’t necessarily a suggestion that they are equally bad. However, this sentence puts them right together, as of you (as is common among many who revile gays) think that pedophilia is either equally as reprehensible, or at the very least very much more likely in gays than others. If you don’t understand the gigantic difference between these two you I can only assume your judgement is clouded by a deeply flawed religious view of the world. I don’t know. Either way to conflate the two is repugnant.
> I thought the answer was obvious, for one thing they shouldn’t be adopting kids. Frankly, I don’t see a good reason for civil unions to exist at all.
Well thanks for your honesty. Gay people on the other had do see a reason for civil unions (and come to that marriage) to exist, and frankly what arrangements they make between themselves and how the law facilitates those arrangements is really none of your business.
Not that it matters much, but I find you an appalling person.
Jay- ‘as silly as arguing the Second amendment does not cover rapid-fire semiautomatic weapons because nobody could imagine them at the time.’
The Lewis and Clark expedition had a 20-shot semiautomatic air rifle powerful enough to kill deer. Available twenty years earlier when the Second Amendment was debated. I’d kind of like one myself.
“The Lewis and Clark expedition had a 20-shot semiautomatic air rifle powerful enough to kill deer. Available twenty years earlier when the Second Amendment was debated. I’d kind of like one myself.”
Ooh, want.
Especially since I don’t believe it’s legally a firearm.
@Jessica Boxer
> That is an insane hypothetical. In a world that screwed up I have no idea what would or would not be allowed.
Well, the world is insane, the topic of the OP should be sufficient evidence of that. As recently as 40 years ago gay marrige would have been considered insane, there are already signs of movement to put pedophilia in the same category.
> Also, I notice you’ve been conflating two meanings of the words gay/pedophile:
No, you haven’t made it clear which you mean. Don’t blame me for your lack of precision.
> 1) Someone who desires to have sex with people of the same sex/children
> I let the comparison slip before because putting gay and pedophile in the same paragraph isn’t necessarily a suggestion that they are equally bad. However, this sentence puts them right together, as of you (as is common among many who revile gays) think that pedophilia is either equally as reprehensible, or at the very least very much more likely in gays than others. If you don’t understand the gigantic difference between these two you I can only assume your judgement is clouded by a deeply flawed religious view of the world. I don’t know. Either way to conflate the two is repugnant.
It used to be considered repugnant to compare blacks to gays the way lots of people in this thread are doing. The way society is going in 40 years it may be considered pedophilia-pobic to attempt to make this distinction.
When that happens what are you going to do? You have no arguments against this position other than calling it “repugnant”. How is that any different then your complaint that people oppose gay marrige due to “disgust”?
> Well thanks for your honesty. Gay people on the other had do see a reason for civil unions (and come to that marriage) to exist,
I notice you didn’t bother listing them.
> and frankly what arrangements they make between themselves and how the law facilitates those arrangements is really none of your business.
And whether someone wants to have sex with children is your buisness because?
> Not that it matters much, but I find you an appalling person.
How very SJW-like of you.
@Jay Maynard
You may want to be careful about demanding that all “rights”, i.e., anything that someone can formulate as a right has to be respected. Otherwise, you’ll wind up dealling with official victim groups’ “right” not to be offended. Note that this “right” is already recognised in many western countries.
Also re: pedophilia.
Do the people in this thread believe that children who say they’re transgender, or who some audalt pressured to say so (it’s rather easy to convince children to say things as the various child-abuse hysterias have demonstrated), should be “transitioned”?
If you answered “yes” to this question than what’s your argument for why children can make this kind of decision for themselves but can’t concent to sex?
@ Random832 – “It’s being dismissed on the strength of more than adequate evidence that those traditions were built in the first place on the basis of bigotry rather than anything rational.”
Not so. All cultural traits have their genesis in our specie’s evolutionary history dating from the development of complex language and the ability to use it for memetic reprogramming after birth (at least 200,000 years ago). That which exists does so because it “worked” in an evolutionary context, i.e. enhanced our survival and fecundity. Traditional marriage grew to become a staple of society simply because it worked better than other modalities, which effectively became extinct after millennia of trial and error.
@Eugine
“Do the people in this thread believe that children who say they’re transgender,”
Or say they are gay?
But this already happens in the Netherlands. Parents must consent.
@Eugine
“or who some audalt pressured to say so ”
Any evidence this happens? Given the number of third persons involved I doubt it.
@winter
> Parents must consent.
So, should parents be able to concent for their children to have sex? Also, what about parents who don’t concent because they’re “homophobic”?
> Any evidence this happens? Given the number of third persons involved I doubt it.
You make completely idiotic arguments like that and then wonder why people don’t take the “evidence” you present seriously.
Insane feminist Andrea Dworkin once wrote children “should have every right to live out their own erotic impulses.” She also wrote the “incest taboo” should be “destroyed,” along with marriage and family.
This entire gender feminist movement is obsessed with destroying normality and promoting perversity; their own. Should children be allowed to eat paint chips and explore the Amazon? If children have such nice judgments concerning transgenderism, why not let them become architects who build bridges out of melted crayons?
Regarding transgender children:
I recently watched Louis Theroux’ documentary on this topic. I am tempted to call it child abuse, but I can’t really rule out the possibility that these children are so fundamentally disturbed that it’s really the best we can give them. What I can rule out is that this has already been demonstrated. Right now, we are roughly where the science with regards to lobotomy was some fifty years ago.
But it’s easy to make the argument, with regards to consent. You frame sex for children as an unnecessary luxury, while claiming that pre-puberty sex change treatment is a life-saving necessity because of all the suicides. It’s more of a justification than an argument as long as no one really knows what these sort of treatments do to people, but it’s what you’ll get.
@Eugine_Nier
Continued: pre-puberal children are not really operated on. They simply prevent puberty from starting. Actual changes are started only later (at 16?). If the child changes her mind, puberty can still be started.
Actual intercourse before 16 is still illegal (but things are more relaxed here). I do not see the connection.
> You frame sex for children as an unnecessary luxury, while claiming that pre-puberty sex change treatment is a life-saving necessity because of all the suicides.
I’m not framing anything. I’m pointing out the framing others use, or predict they will use.
>I’m not framing anything. I’m pointing out the framing others use, or predict they will use.
I’m sorry, the ‘you’ is a placeholder for any hypothetical person who wants to justify administering hormone treatments etc for children.
The childish sickness this moronic social justice movement consists of the idea the word “majority” or “normal” is a synonym for the word “immoral.”
From there it’s a short hop to demography=ideology. Those are the two ways this movement has used to demonize any moment in which men or whites are randomly gathered into a hobby or the natural majority of heterosexuals. This is how Shanley Kane goes after tech, this is how the science fiction movement goes after the Golden Age of Science Fiction, this is how Anita Sarkeesian goes after gaming.
There are no misdeeds required. One needs no quotes. Where there’s smoke there’s fire, and there’s always a five-alarm fire going where it concerns straight white males. They can’t even sit on a convention panel without N.Y. Times best-selling author John Green declaring he now boycotts such things or generally attaching the most base motives and irrational suspicions to any frickin’ move a straight white man makes. Given that, why wouldn’t E. R. Burroughs, A. Merrit, Heinlein and Vance comprise a women-hating, racist, homophobic KKK by fiat?
@Eugine_Nier
> I notice you didn’t bother listing them.
You mean apart from the ten times above that I already have?
> And whether someone wants to have sex with children is your buisness because?
Really? Does that need to be explained to you? The answer is consent. Children do not have the maturity to consent to sexual relationships or various other decisions that require some level of maturity. Children, because they are not able to exercise their human rights have those rights delegated to others, usually parents, and in accepting these rights parents accept an obligation to make good and healthy decisions for those children. These decisions have to follow the basic moral frameworks that underline our society or else they lose their parental rights. If society degenerates to the point where young children are considered viable sexual prey, then society is so screwed up a little child sex is the least of their problems.
I read the article you linked to, it is just handwavy bla, bla rather than demonstrating anything (and the fact that it references Return of Kings, a deeply misogynistic blog is hardly to its credit.) I see no evidence in there at all that pedophilia is any closer to mainstream at all. In fact I’d say the trend is exactly the opposite, with the aggressive prosecution as pedophilla things that are probably perfectly normal (sixteen year old girls having sex with men a few years older than them for example.)
> How very SJW-like of you.
If you think me calling you a dreadful person is SJW like, you have no idea what these people are like. I don’t want to put you in jail or cut off your balls, I just don’t want to talk to someone whose views having been aired and discussed, remain repulsive.
@Jessica Boxer
> Really? Does that need to be explained to you? The answer is consent. Children do not have the maturity to consent to sexual relationships or various other decisions that require some level of maturity.
Wow, I come back from the future and the first thing I see is how despicably pedophobic my past self used to be. This is so embarassing. Using the exact same arguments on children that were once used to deny women and blacks their rights.
[sigh]
Ah, gay marriage. So fraught. So dramatic. So *important*.
Except, y’know, not really, since the gay population is barely a couple of percent at most, and nowhere near all of those will want to marry — like it or not, gay promiscuity is real and significant — and the rest of the oft-claimed higher percentage is indeterminably bisexual, so more likely to marry hetero, and, ultimately, the real threat to marriage is no-fault divorce.
I do understand the resistance, though; marriage is also a contract between two people on one side and a community on the other, and some people don’t want to sign off on the gay marriage expansion contract at all. They feel like it’s a violation of their existing contract as members of the community, or as hetero married people on the other side of it, or both.
Additionally, the effective indenture of bakers et. al. blatantly violates the 1st Amendment right of negative association. The ability, in your private life — i.e. distinguished from the State’s machinery — to not associate with people you find objectionable has been both starved and poisoned for years, enabled by Filburn pulling the gates of hell so much farther open.
Having something like that forced upon you naturally provokes resistance, which the media then exploits for advertising dollars by playing “Let’s You and Him Fight”. And of course it also serves as a good distraction from the State playing Heads We Win, Tails You Lose, using both sides to corruptly expand its power.
But it’s still just a little bagatelle of a side issue compared to the gawdawful pernicious female chauvanist, anti-child incentives *against* hetero marriage that have become institutionalized.
You’re both treating gay marriage as though the consequences of allowing or denying it were meaningfully comparable to the effects on the much larger hetero marriage community of the general public invalidation of fatherhood. But they aren’t. There just aren’t enough gays, let alone marriage-minded ones, for the consequences of gay marriage to come even remotely close to the results of widespread paternal exclusion.
Gay marriage is just the right wedge at the right time to further chip away at the Bill of Rights; not because of conspiracy, but because it’s just what governments do. Threats to citizens can be divided into 4 kinds; external State actors (agents of foreign States able to harm the home nation’s citizens), external non-State actors (private citizens of foreign States able to harm the home nation’s citizens), internal non-State actors (the home nation’s citizens able to harm their fellows, and internal State actors (agents of the home State able to harm the home nation’s citizens).
The point of the categories is to point out how power naturally tends to corrupt. Governments seek to reduce all of these threats, but the more they succeed, the more the fourth kind of threat tends to become the most dangerous. Sort of an ‘Any sufficiently successful government is indistinguishable from tyranny’ thing. While they’ve got you busily distracted chasing each other’s tails over gay marriage with one hand, they’re gathering up more power and reducing your liberties with the other.
>Return of Kings, a deeply misogynistic blog
Jessica, just to help establish a baseline here, how would you then characterize the following, please?
https://nationalparentsorganization.org/blog/17517-cbss-the-talk-cal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKgwczruOSQ
@Jessica Boxer 2045
> Wow, I come back from the future and the first thing I see is how despicably pedophobic
Just to be clear, I did not make this comment. I have no idea who is commenting under “Jessica Boxer 2045” but I would guess it is a deliberate attempt to mislead you and misrepresent my views.
Cheap shot.
Acksiom
> how would you then characterize the following, please?
What a ridiculous question. Obviously I would characterize what happened to that man as a dreadful sexual battery, and probably torture, pretty much like the DA did. I would characterize the reaction on the show as the usual nonsense you get on that show, partly because they are all a bunch of self righteous PC SJWs, and partly because it is a circus and they are dancing for the crowd.
Why on earth would you think I, or any right minded person, would think differently.
Random832 wrote:
As an infertile heterosexual, married man raised as one of the (adopted) children of an infertile heterosexual married couple (as I noted in a footnote to a possibly relevant article, I thank you for your very kind and generous (albeit anonymous) indulgence.
@Winter
No, the word “prejudice” refers to beliefs.
@Jessica Boxer
So.. if murderers and pedophiles can be detected reliably using MRI, you think society should set them free?
@TriggerFinger
Clearly you do have feelings on this topic.
Eric, I think we have an alt.
Jessica Boxer on 2015-11-11 at 17:58:59 said:
>> Acksiom:
>> how would you then characterize the following, please?
>
>What a ridiculous question.
No it’s not. You said specifically –
Return of Kings, a deeply misogynistic blog
And here I thought you were a clear thinker, not a parrot of what tumblr fembots insist are articles of faith (RoK = misogyny!!!). I have a lot of issues with RoK – but mostly due to their idiot bible thumping. But…
Let’s assume there is a grain of truth in your misogyny smear – it pales into insignificance when compared to the misandry of even mainstream media femtwits like Marcotte or Valenti, let alone the blogs at the far fringes of the conspiracy feminist loopyverse.
What RoK are are masculinist preachers. And professional, old school trolls. What a pity to see you reeled in so easily.
@franc “Masculine” is the last word I’d use to describe RoK. Whiny babies maybe.
@rogue_philologist – I’m using their words, not mine.
Regardless, to just blurt out “RoK is misogynist” out of the blue with no further elaboration is a classic example of the thought terminating cliche. “It is heresy – you must not look at it”. This is an ideological diktat.
Blunt reality is you are far more likely to find an article with substance and verifiable citation on RoK than Jezebel or Feministing. To simply classify it as that-which-must-not-be-read by slapping a “misogyny” sticker on it is not a sign of a mind that is either open or free.
@franc As laughable as Jezebel et al are, RoK is even worse. Roosh is an utter hysteric who (rightly) feels left behind by the times. If the feminists are losers and idiots, what does that make someone who acts like the feminists rule over his life with an iron fist?
I feel so sorry for Roosh that I almost regret posting that. Better to just leave the poor guy alone.
The problem with raising the issue that same gender parents may produce worse outcomes for children than mixed gender parents is that we have enough data and experience to know that if there is a difference it is comparatively small – less than the difference in outcome due to poverty or single parenting – and thus insufficient to justify different treatment for same sex couples re adoption or other parenting policy.
rogue_philologist on 2015-11-11 at 20:37:14 said:
@franc As laughable as Jezebel et al are, RoK is even worse. Roosh is an utter hysteric who (rightly) feels left behind by the times. If the feminists are losers and idiots, what does that make someone who acts like the feminists rule over his life with an iron fist?
Either you have not read very much; read what’s been quote mined for you; or read completely uncritically and in an “I will believe anything” kind of way.
Your reaction is textbook SJW emotion trumping substance. Your comment can be condensed to “Roosh is a crying man-baby” – which, funnily enough is how white knights and the victims they bravely defend describe him. Trite, superior dismissal.
I have said I am not a great fan of Roosh or RoK – but I stated an explicit factual reason.
This is, as I’ve more or less said several times here, a clear example of exactly how deeply SJWs have poisoned the overall narrative and ensnared “reasonable moderates” without their even being aware of it. Roosh is pushing shit up hill, because before he even starts, assessments like yours are primed and ready on autopilot and ready to fire as soon as his name is mentioned – and you don’t even have to read a word he has written – you just know you can pour shit on him and everyone will nod in furious agreement.
This, and not SJWs themselves, is the root of all of our problems.
rogue_philologist on 2015-11-11 at 20:37:14 said:
@franc As laughable as Jezebel et al are, RoK is even worse. Roosh is an utter hysteric who (rightly) feels left behind by the times. If the feminists are losers and idiots, what does that make someone who acts like the feminists rule over his life with an iron fist?
And also if you could point me towards some RoK/Roosh posts where they chuckle over wife beating anecdotes or “how to” guides for kicking chicks in the cunt, I’d be grateful. Jezebel have their bases covered.
> That which exists does so because it “worked” in an evolutionary context, i.e. enhanced our survival and fecundity.
Yes, and that includes bigotry. This does not inherently make these things a moral good that should not be rejected in a modern environment.
@franc
> I thought you were a clear thinker, not a parrot of what tumblr fembots insist are articles of faith (RoK = misogyny!!!).
I don’t believe I have ever read anything at all on tumblr, so not so much. However, let’s look at a couple of article titles from Return of Kings:
Women Must Have Their Behavior And Decisions Controlled By Men
Controlling Your Woman’s Diet
Or their advocacy of: How Patriarchy Will Return
These are just a couple I came across in two minutes of looking.
So, yeah, puerile, sophomoric misogyny.
@franc
Because in this instance, they are correct.
My reason was just as “explicit, factual”.
If you think my feelings on Roosh come from SJW’s, or that I’m courting “furious agreement” on this forum, you’re very much mistaken.
I don’t think the SJW’s are at the “root” of anything, let alone all my problems. And where did this mysterious “our” come from?
>What a ridiculous question.
I’ll be clearer. I was asking for your estimate of that sick fiasco in comparison to your characterization of RoK as deeply misogynist. Have you seen anything at RoK as foul as that Talk behavior, including the loud and enthusiastic support of their audience?
Also, they not only appear to have escaped any serious consequences from it, but are getting even more Daytime Emmy nominations. So I was wondering if that affected your assessment of the general level of “misandry” in mainstream culture, by which I mean the depersonalization, dehumanization, and devaluing of males in specific and their routine acceptance as normal. RoK is tiny and far from mainstream; The Talk practically defines mainstream for their huge home leisure female demographic.
In short, if RoK is deeply misogynist, but doesn’t even approach that level and degree of depersonalization, dehumanization, and devaluing, what comparative estimation do you make of The Talk RE “misandry”?
Personally I have little to no use for either term because misogyny has been so grossly expanded and inflated that it’s almost useless, such as being used excessively by some women to merely control male behavior that they don’t like, but isn’t actually hateful at all — usually it’s just indifferent to their interests. Very little male behavior is hateful towards women; if anything, it’s the reverse. But characterizing normal, healthy adult male boundaries that prevent that default caring without reciprocation as misogyny, forex, is sort of a Zenith Fallacy, where the worst of men are treated as representative of the majority.
Aaaaaand then of course the MRA copycats came along and just flipped the sexes and starting slapping the label around the same way. Depersonalization, dehumanization, and devaluation IME are what people are really objecting to in cases when the terms are applied usefully, but men’s and women’s advocates have effectively ruined both terms and turned them into buzzwords.
>I would characterize the reaction on the show as the usual nonsense you get on that show, partly because they are all a bunch of self righteous PC SJWs, and partly because it is a circus and they are dancing for the crowd.
Really? I don’t know the show’s tone apart from those two segments at all, but if that’s the usual nonsense, things overall are even worse than I thought. If that’s what the crowd wants, how do you think they compare to the crowd at RoK?
>Why on earth would you think I, or any right minded person, would think differently.
Wait, why would you think I thought you were thinking anything in particular when I was directly asking you what you thought? No sarc, seriously. I’m just trying to get a sense of your standards.
> As an infertile heterosexual, married man raised as one of the (adopted) children of an infertile heterosexual married couple (as I noted in a footnote to a possibly relevant article, I thank you for your very kind and generous (albeit anonymous) indulgence.
I’m not sure why you’re annoyed with me rather than the person whose position I was characterizing there, who said “The difference has to do with the potential for children,” … “The are lots of valid, rational reasons for relationships involving children or the potential for children to be treated differently.”
@Jessica Boxer
Of the three articles you posted, one is simply retarded (patriarchy never left), one is an attempt at humor on keeping your woman in shape, and the other is by “manosphere” standards surprisingly enlightened (he even quotes Schopenhauer!). I have no doubt that the authors are bitter twats, but the content itself is hardly hateful. If anything, the weight loss article shows a love of women.
@Jessica Boxer Can’t we talk about JavaScript or something instead?
@ Random852 – “Yes, and that includes bigotry.”
Yes, in the ancestral evolutionary environment, a form of bigotry may have been present as a compliment to religious practices (to discourage non conformity with the rituals that aided memetic indoctrination). As such, it would likely have been an indirect aid to reproduction via ensuing fidelity to successful social conventions such as marriage. In a sense, you are making the argument that we likely wouldn’t be here as a species in the present if our ancestors weren’t somewhat bigoted during our evolutionary development.
> In a sense, you are making the argument that we likely wouldn’t be here as a species in the present if our ancestors weren’t somewhat bigoted during our evolutionary development.
This is vacuously true if one adds the qualification that a species without some natural (or culturally infectious) inclination towards bigotry would not be quite the same species. Genes (and memes) propagate themselves, and the successful ones are the ones successful in doing so and/or wiping out the competition; they don’t have some altruistic inclination to be beneficial “to the species”.
Something can be of no benefit to “the species” as a whole, yet survive and propagate, if it merely causes the tribe which has it to be more inclined to destroy the tribe that does not.
Evolutionary success of a particular trait is not a reasonable measure of anything but itself. Viruses are evolutionarily successful.
@Random832
Sure. But the species for which such things proliferate without limit gets wiped out. And yet here we are, the most advanced species on planet Earth. How did we get here? Genocide.
So, “success” isn’t a reasonable measure of anything but success? Or maybe of the successful organism? lol? Viruses are ubiquitous, but are nowhere near as successful as humans.
@Acksiom
> I’ll be clearer. I was asking for your estimate of that sick fiasco in comparison to your characterization of RoK as deeply misogynist.
That is a more interesting question. No, actually, I think Return of Kings is worse due to the context. The View was just a nastiness, a kind of sick dark humor, coupled with schoolgirl giggling about boy parts. I don’t think any serious person would take away from that that the View was recommending all women on hearing of their pending divorce should be chopping off their soon-to-be-exes private parts. It was just a piece of hyperbolic, sophomoric stupidity.
Return of Kings though, on the other hand, presents itself as a serious source of advice on how to live your life. They are trying to teach impressionable young men to disrespect women and treat them badly. To cite one of the articles I mentioned, it is part of a serious movement to restore (or expand) patriarchy. That is a much worse thing than the stupid girls of the view.
Of course the view has a massive nationwide audience, and Return of Kings is a minor blip on the far end of the long tail, so, I suppose from that perspective, The View thing is more significant.
But let me put it this way… did the View thing cause any woman to chop off her guy’s dick? Unlikely. Did the articles in Return of Kings cause any guy to treat women badly, or change some men’s mind to think that patriarchy is a good thing and that all women are horrendous bitches who are only useful for fucking and making your lunch? I’d imagine many young men bought that meme from that web site, so I suppose from a total influence point of view, Return of Kings is worse.
Bottom line, they are both horrible. Which is more horrible depends on the measure you are using.
@Jessica Boxer
What always seems to pass people by here, is that you owe everything you have to the “patriarchy”. It’s amazing the way people can treat it as a big injustice that conquerors battled each other and oppressed people into doing what they were told. Like that isn’t the entire reason for virtually everything we love today, including technology. And if it weren’t humans battling humans, it’d have been humans versus bacteria. Not a single person seems to understand that without enemies we couldn’t even exist.
Not to mention, the phrase “useful for fucking and making your lunch” is an excellent summary of how men feel about women. You can replace “making your lunch” with any number of boring things you don’t have time for, including things previously reserved for men, but the situation stays the same. Isn’t it well understood that women’s hobbies are all boring?
Jessica Boxer on 2015-11-11 at 21:57:00 said:
@franc > I thought you were a clear thinker, not a parrot of what tumblr fembots insist are articles of faith (RoK = misogyny!!!).
I don’t believe I have ever read anything at all on tumblr, so not so much. However, let’s look at a couple of article titles from Return of Kings:
Women Must Have Their Behavior And Decisions Controlled By Men
Controlling Your Woman’s Diet
Or their advocacy of: How Patriarchy Will Return
These are just a couple I came across in two minutes of looking.
So, yeah, puerile, sophomoric misogyny.
Why didn’t you quote the bit I wrote that mattered?
What RoK are are masculinist preachers. And professional, old school trolls. What a pity to see you reeled in so easily.
Also, have some Jezebel –
http://jezebel.com/how-to-kick-a-guy-in-the-balls-an-illustrated-guide-1657810297
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
Yeah, no way near as bad as Roosh…
Roosh is a provocateur, a click baiter, a troll. Does he advocate violence? No. Does he incite hatred of women? No. He just says shit he knows will make the sisters shoot their tampons out.
I’m not so much defending Roosh as condemning the Pavlovian outrage his name evokes in people who have been trained that it is the socially “correct” response. I will not dismiss Roosh out of hand just because that’s what polite society expects – sure, I will dismiss his dumber articles, but I’ll treat the next on its own merits, without bias. Just as I read each Valenti or Marcotte article with a Herculean effort to suspend preconceptions – there is always the naive hope the will come up with something not stupid.
Why do you find this attitude so horrendous?
And Roosh is a direct byproduct of 3rd wave feminism anyway. Want to blame someone? Blame them. I’m just throwing peanuts from the gallery.
> So, “success” isn’t a reasonable measure of anything but success?
Of the particular kind of success.
In particular, that a particular ape-brain (or lizard-brain) trait is evolutionary successful doesn’t provide any value for the proposition that we shouldn’t use our [also evolutionary successful] intelligence to consider and discard some morally/ethically questionable trait as being no longer necessary in the modern world.
> I will dismiss his dumber articles, but I’ll treat the next on its own merits, without bias.
I think at some point you’ve got to have a filter for whether something’s vanishingly unlikely to be worth your time without reading it. Neither RoK nor anything on the Gawker network passes mine.
rogue_philologist on 2015-11-11 at 22:03:16 said:
If you think my feelings on Roosh come from SJW’s, or that I’m courting “furious agreement” on this forum, you’re very much mistaken.
I’ll believe you when I see you use the same kind of snarl language against someone like Naomi Wolf who birthed the 1 in 4 mythology. Until you do, its a case of a mysterious and venomous anti-Roosh sentiment/bias that is hardly rational. If not subliminally influenced by “social justice”, you tell me where it originates from then?
@franc
Jessica has already more or less come out as trying to be SJW-lite. Heck, she tried getting away with saying that targeting CEOs of big companies was OK.
@franc
It’s no mystery where it “comes from”. I am a regular commenter here, Roosh was brought up, I gave my opinion on Roosh. And now some random jerk off who signed up here yesterday to indulge in moral panic about SJW’s thinks I’m going to deign to prove to him that I’m not “biased” against Roosh, whatever the fuck that means. Hilarious.
@Random832
First, if you want to talk on evolutionary timescales you can’t resort to “morality” as a justification. Morality is itself nothing more than an evolved trait. If something has been useful for the previous million years, odds are it will be useful for the next million years. So if you’re going to discard it, maybe you should have a better idea than confused, moralistic claptrap.
> Morality is itself nothing more than an evolved trait.
So why use a false rationality to choose one evolved trait over another when the two provide conflicting ideas on what to do in a given situation?
> If something has been useful for the previous million years, odds are it will be useful for the next million years.
The great thing about intelligence as an evolved trait is that you can use it to reason about what’s useful right now rather than relying on instincts designed around what’s been useful, on average, in the past.
@Random832
Because life wants falsity as much as truth.
So how does this render your use of shallow moralisms as a reason to abandon millions-year-tested practices any smarter? And we’re not just interested in what’s useful now, we’re interested in what’s going to be useful in the future. It’s possible that heterosexuality will be rendered obsolete by genetic engineering. But in that case so will homosexuality.
> And we’re not just interested in what’s useful now, we’re interested in what’s going to be useful in the future.
We’ll still be intelligent in the future and can make those decisions then. The whole point of intelligence is to be able to make rational decisions instead of being ruled by instinct.
@Random832
Once again, in what way does this mitigate the shallowness of your moralizing? You keep using words like “rational” and “intelligent” but coming out of your mouth they’re just hollow slogans. The decisions we make now determine what we will be like in the future (it’s called genetics).
@Roger Philips
“So how does this render your use of shallow moralisms as a reason to abandon millions-year-tested practices any smarter?”
I do not understand why a present day US caricature of prehistoric human behavior should prevent us from making informed decisions on matters that were not even thinkable back then.
For example, same sex couples are found in almost all vertebrate populations investigated that form couples. It is rather inconceivable they would not have existed in primordial humans. Anthropology of hunter-gatherer societies come up with a bewildering range of “marriage” patterns. “One man-One woman” is just one of them.
So any claims about “thousands of years of marriage morals” or even “Million years” implying “One man-Some women” marriages as the golden standard are all based on “innovations” from agricultural societies long after the genetic make-up of homo sapiens was essentially fixed.
The same holds for practically every other religious sensitivity. They are all Neolithic innovations that required religious intervention and treatment in the scriptures because they were “unnatural”.
Just a little funny interlude. Speculations to show how consistently human nature resurfaces over tens of millennia, totally countering our expectations of what is “natural”.
We all know the worst of our behaviors: Sitting in the dark in front of a flickering tube watching stupid stories. We do it too much and it eats up our time with senseless non-activity.
Go back 30,000 years. What were Cro-Magnum cave men doing in their past time? Sitting in caves, watching paintings on a wall in flickering light while a voice tells a story.
Early Humans Made Animated Art
How Paleolithic artists used fire to set the world’s oldest art in motion.
http://nautil.us/issue/11/light/early-humans-made-animated-art
Now we must question, why would people do that? Just think, why do present day boys and girls go to a dark theater?
@Winter
You should quote my name as it’s written, unless you’re trying to confuse people.
It shouldn’t, and it won’t. So don’t get your panties in a twist.
They probably had cancer and intestinal worms, too.
And to think that just a few posts ago I was ridiculing Random for his moralizing, and here I am being accused of pushing “marriage morals” on people. Jesus help us. You can grow babies in a lab for food for all I care. It’s quite odd for a “scientist” such as yourself to consider the “genetic make-up of homosapiens” to be fixed. Perhaps you haven’t heard of GMOs yet.
So what does this have to do with genetic engineering? Oh right, you didn’t bother reading that bit because it interferes with you jacking off all over my posts. What happened is you “sensed” that I was “against” some person or another, and therefore “aligned” with them, and have mentally conflated everything they’ve said with what I’ve said. I don’t give a shit about marriage. But the beliefs of those actively defending “gay marriage” and denigrating the value of heterosexuality here is idiotic.
Random832 wrote:
I’m not annoyed with you. As I just got through observing on a different but arguably related matter (Sarah Sharp), ‘Outrage on the Internet is cheap, and has a poor exchange rate with everything else.’
If you meant something different by your bit about infertile heterosexual couples being ‘tolerated’ than I assumed, good for you, and I’ll gladly send you virtual beer for allowing me to launch my small jab at a notoriously bad marriage argument from said phrase.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
@rogue_philologist/Roger Philips
“@Winter
You should quote my name as it’s written, unless you’re trying to confuse people.”
But then the other people would not understand why we cannot communicate. Now they know that mutual comprehension is for us as impossible as reaching the speed of light or attaining a temperature of zero degrees kelvin.
Jessica Boxer on 2015-11-12 at 00:20:25 said:
Return of Kings though, on the other hand, presents itself as a serious source of advice on how to live your life. They are trying to teach impressionable young men to disrespect women and treat them badly.
Thanks for femsplaining. Goodness what an idiot I am for never having gotten your observations. Cut my legs off and call me shorty.
To cite one of the articles I mentioned…
Pick up any women’s magazine at a supermarket checkout and your will find the same, and worse, pissing on men and how women know better… Any magazine anywhere. Either an article or spleen in the letters section. It’s all perfectly fine. But in this case…
It’s Roosh. Roosh = Satan. Evil. Burn it. Shun those who disagree. Neither buy their cattle nor sell them cattle feed. Turn your backs when they enter the temple etc.
Freethought. It’s sooooooooo last millenium.
rogue_philologist on 2015-11-12 at 01:04:36 said:
And now some random jerk off who signed up here yesterday to indulge in moral panic about SJW’s thinks I’m going to deign to prove to him that I’m not “biased” against Roosh, whatever the fuck that means. Hilarious.
You sound like Becky Watson pissing on Richard Dawkins. At least you have a high opinion of yourself.
Yet to see a non-emotional non-kneejerk explanation of your antipathy. Not holding breath.
rogue_philologist on 2015-11-12 at 01:04:36 said:
And now some random jerk off who signed up here yesterday to indulge in moral panic about SJW’s thinks I’m going to deign to prove to him that I’m not “biased” against Roosh, whatever the fuck that means. Hilarious.
Or put in terms you are more familiar with –
“I am a REGULAR. How DARE you speak out of turn you NEWBIE.”
Insecurity and thwapping dicks on keyboards. Where would the internet be without it?
Here’s a challenge to all you “Let’s toss another Roosh on the pyre” cheerleaders. Give me one “hateful” Roosh post and I will return threefold from the sisterhood of the oppressed.
Any takers? I expect mute silence.
@ESR
>My senior apprentice, the person I’m teaching systems architecture, happens to be female.
Genuinely curious (and apparently no one has bothered to ask): How does that fit into your policy (circa 2013) of not accepting “would-be disciples”? And while I’m asking, what is your approach to mentorship?
>Genuinely curious (and apparently no one has bothered to ask): How does that fit into your policy (circa 2013) of not accepting “would-be disciples”?
The would-be-disciples hurl themselves in over the transom by email. Susan made friends with me first, then asked me to teach her things. She was also a bit of a special case since, all unknowing at the time, I had been responsible for her deciding that hackers were her people … when she was 12.
>And while I’m asking, what is your approach to mentorship?
Er, what’s the classification system?
@franc
Now you’ve brought your grudge against “Becky Watson” into the conversation. I don’t even know who the fuck that is. But judging by your obvious insecurities, I calculate a probability of **100%** that she is some kind of retarded feminist character that you’re overreacting to.
You are only posting here because feminists were mentioned. If we were talking about JavaScript (if only) you wouldn’t have even bothered to sign up here. You accuse me of emotional, knee-jerk postings – your entire presence here is a gigantic fucking spasm triggered by your chronic emotional oversensitivity.
@rogue_philologist
> So how does this render your use of shallow moralisms as a reason to abandon millions-year-tested practices any smarter?
This thread is degenerating into hostile nonsense, however this is a point worth debating. Does the longevity of heterosexual marriage validate it?
It is also true that monarchy and tyranny have been the common practice of government for thousands of years, but that doesn’t mean liberty or democracy aren’t an improvement (or come to that monarchy lite as practiced in Britain and Holland.) Slavery has been the common state of much of mankind for thousands of years, but that doesn’t make it good. Virginity at marriage has also been vitally important in society for much of human history, but isn’t really today. Executions for witchcraft and blasphemy used to be pretty common, and rape and slavery were the prospects of the common people of a defeated army.
So the fact that something is long lived doesn’t validate it. The world changes, anachronisms die, civilization progresses.
@rogue/Roger
“your entire presence here is a gigantic fucking spasm triggered by your chronic emotional oversensitivity.”
You never learn, do you?
But talking about “chronic emotional oversensitivity”, aren’t you aware that you are advertising your own condition here?
@franc
> Give me one “hateful” Roosh post and I will return threefold from the sisterhood of the oppressed.
I don’t know who Roosh is, I imagine from context he is the author or Return of Kings. But I am shocked at the silliness of this statement. Assuming you are correct what difference does it make? Just because the radical feminists are nuts doesn’t mean that their opponents are immune from criticism.
During the Iraq war American soldiers committed terrible crimes on prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison. The Iraqis probably did much worse, but the Iraqi’s crimes in no way excuse the behavior of our troops in that prison any more than the misandry of the feminists (or Sharon Osborne) somehow excuse the misogyny of Return of Kings.
Islamic culture is strongly patriarchal, has stagnated for nearly a millennia, and is commonly regarded as a serious threat to modern Western civilization. Conversely, a patriarchal culture characterized the pioneer society that overcame great hardship to settle the western US wilderness during the 19th Century. The latter was not so much a direct oppression of women as it was a selection for toughness (a necessary survival trait in that environment) and the imperative for decisiveness. The system seems to work best when men and women have distinct roles and agency, and there is mutual respect.
@TomA
“The latter was not so much a direct oppression of women as it was a selection for toughness (a necessary survival trait in that environment) and the imperative for decisiveness. The system seems to work best when men and women have distinct roles and agency, and there is mutual respect.”
That holds for all patriarchies. At the root of the Islam, Mohammed improved the position of women significantly. Most of the oppressive customs were copied from christian people that were conquered.
People forget that medieval England had more in common with the rule of the Taliban than with our times.
It is just that muslims and hindus in the hearthlands still live in the 18th century.
@Jessic Boxer
I’m you from the year 2045, you have no idea how hard it was to gain access to a time machine. You really should listen to me and stop being so pedophobic and agist, it’ll save you a lot of embarasment later on.
@winter
> People forget that medieval England had more in common with the rule of the Taliban than with our times.
> It is just that muslims and hindus in the hearthlands still live in the 18th century.
First, the 18th century is not the same as the middle ages (This isn’t directly relevant to my point but it does raise questions about your knowledge of history).
Second, what do you mean by this, are you saying that the laws of nature (or at least human nature) aren’t different in different centuries?
@winter
Also, given the actions your country’s and the EU governments are taking in the name of “21th century ethics” they’ll like find themselves ruled by Taliban-style ethics within a generation.
@Eugene
“First, the 18th century is not the same as the middle ages”
Indeed, but these people still live in the 18th century, not the 14th. Still, the Taliban are much closer to the culture of 14th century England than we are. Note that Arabs consider the Taliban tribal barbarians.
@Eugene
“Also, given the actions your country’s and the EU governments are taking in the name of “21th century ethics” they’ll like find themselves ruled by Taliban-style ethics within a generation.”
Promises, promises. Still, you might look closer at home.
@Jessica Boxer
This is so severely illogical that it blows my mind. If something has been around for a long time, it will probably be around for a long time to come. That there are some *exceptions* doesn’t refute the rule. You sound like an utter fool pontificating about the superiority of democracy and freedom from slavery. Democracy is, by definition, the average! It’s neither great nor terrible. It is by definition in the middle. If it’s not in the middle it’s not democracy, is it? The fact that democracy is seen to be doing well is a sign that there are simply no great leaders left.
@Winter
Is this an attempt to pastiche me? You can’t even understand what I’m saying, and here you are trying to gauge my emotional state. So it’s you who never learn. And in fact, the only reason you’re saying “you never learn” is because I’ve said it to you many times. You’re becoming a carnival mirror image of me.
@rogue_philologist
> If something has been around for a long time, it will probably be around for a long time to come. That there are some *exceptions* doesn’t refute the rule.
I think you missed the point. Let me explain. In the comments here it has been claimed that longevity is in itself a reason to keep “traditional marriage”, that somehow longevity is proof that it is meritorious. However, the examples of where that is demonstrably not true are legion, and I even offered you a few off the top of my head.
> Democracy is, by definition, the average! It’s neither great nor terrible.
I have no idea what that means. However, let me clarify, I am no advocate of democracy. It really is a terribly oppressive system. Modern representative democracy doubly so. However, it is better than most of the forms of government that preceded it. Churchill is often misquoted as saying “democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others”, which isn’t actually what he said. However, that statement is incorrect. There is a better form of government, it is called liberty, encapsulated in that phrase “the government is best which governs least.”
So although I might advocate democracy over monarchy, or oligarchy, or tyranny, I by no means think it is intrinsically a good thing. It is just better than many of the other systems we humans have endured.
@Jessica Boxer
I understood the point perfectly. But the general essence of what TriggerFinger et al are saying, if you get past the idiocy of their specifics, is that homosexuality is a degenerate, biologically useless, or even harmful trait, much like being born with one leg. Homosexuals in other words, are a kind of psychosexual cripple. And that is perfectly true.
Now, what to do with these people? The same thing as we do with all other cripples, especially as civilization rises in power: find other uses for them. And why not let them raise children? Provided, that is, that they don’t infect them with their bitterness toward non-cripples. So you and I arrive at exactly the same point, but in your case you’re doing your best to frame the whole thing in terms of “equality” and other moralisms.
Oligarchy is vastly superior to democracy. But this quote captures the essence of your views: “systems we humans have endured”, which would be more accurately rephrased as “systems we slaves have endured”. Oligarchy is perfectly fine if you’re an oligarch. I’m also pretty flabbergasted that you can’t understand the relationship between democracy and the average. Democracy is rule by numbers. In a perfect democracy every person’s vision is equal. Therefore, the outcome is the average of all views.
> Oligarchy is vastly superior to democracy.
Well, that depends on who’s in charge. And I suspect that it’s structurally unable to stay good for multiple generations.
@rogue_philologist: I’d like to point out that I didn’t say THAT, either. Briefly summarized my position is that it’s reasonable for the state to make rules that encourage relationships resulting in children. I explicitly don’t endorse negatives like “degenerate”, “biologically useless” or “harmful” generally (specific individuals may of course be any or all of the above).
@TriggerFinger
The bit about not “endorsing” negative terms is telling. In other words, minus your confusions you agree with me in substance, but you don’t want to look like an asshole.
@Random832
If it didn’t matter who was in charge, it wouldn’t be leadership, would it? Advances in cloning might solve the generational problem.
@rogue_philologist: Please don’t put words in my mouth. You got to your position one way. I got to mine a different way. In my world, people are people and whether they choose to have children is up to them. It’s good for society to encourage that to some degree by making laws that deal with the obvious and common situations (inheritance, paternity rights, etc, etc, etc). That’s not a negative value judgment on those who are not interested.
@TriggerFinger
Yes it is.
I imagine you’re the sort of person who can say “I prefer Coke, but that’s not a negative value judgment on Pepsi!!!!!!”
@rogue_philologist: Of course. A preference is not the same as a negative. If we assign coke a utilitarian value of 1, pepsi a utilitarian value of 0, and dr pepper a utilitarian value of -1, perhaps that will help you to understand the concept. I can dislike dr pepper, and prefer coke to pepsi when both are available, without actually disliking pepsi or believing it is harmful.
@TriggerFinger
Yes it is. You don’t even understand your own example. Given Coke, you will not drink Pepsi. Given hydration of some kind you will not drink Dr Pepper. But if you are left with nothing else to drink, you will eventually drink it.
@rogue_philologist: There’s not much point in attempting to discuss anything with people who try to tell me what my positions are.
lol. What a pathetic capitulation. More like “not much point attempting to justify my idiotic ideas”. Preference is a relation on outcomes, not a mapping from outcomes to integers, you bozo. That’s not “your position”.
Here’s the social media post Nop was referring to:
https://plus.google.com/117846245886876007441/posts/JaHJf2KyGsP
Hilarious! The picture of Eric alone is priceless, plus this inane woman’s outrage at Eric the “crazy gun-toting misogynist” and her delusional aspirations to “excise” Eric from the OSS community. Even tron guy gets a mention in there.
@Rogue Philips
“And in fact, the only reason you’re saying “you never learn” is because I’ve said it to you many times. You’re becoming a carnival mirror image of me.”
How many times have you been banned on this blog? Twice? Three times? And every time you come back starting wasting people’s time with rants and insults.
Having a conversation with you is like trying to talk to the Eliza chat bot, but then one that only replies with insults. It is only a matter of time before you go ballistic for long enough to be kicked out again.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2015/03/16/rude_or_mean_computers_pass_the_turing_test_but_programming_robots_to_swear.html
But I get it, this is it. This is all a very elaborate joke. You are just an insulting version of Eliza. You fooled me. I totally fell for it. Great joke. That really is cool. A real Troll Bot!
@Jessica
“However, let me clarify, I am no advocate of democracy. It really is a terribly oppressive system. Modern representative democracy doubly so.”
Empirically, the most free countries in the world are currently representative democracies. Empirically, countries with (almost) no government are hell holes which people try to flee as fast as possible.
@Jessica
“There is a better form of government, it is called liberty, encapsulated in that phrase “the government is best which governs least.”
Great, show me the evidence. Where are these countries and in what ways where they “better” than, say Denmark or Finland?
>Er, what’s the classification system?
I dunno, I thought maybe you would have come up with one. I’m just wondering what general ideas or theories you have about the act of mentoring, and how they have or haven’t worked out in practice.
Governments by definition take away people’s liberties, claiming that what they are traded in for is the sort of liberty worth having. For instance, a totalitarian communist will argue that taxation and expropriation increases liberty by freeing people from the oppression of capitalism, while your garden variety liberal insists that having the state confiscate other people’s weapons is liberty, not being allowed to own a gun.
Blank faced lies and category errors of this sort – liberty is the best form of government (!?) – are precisely what Orwell satirized in 1984.
@Anonymous
“Governments by definition take away people’s liberties, claiming that what they are traded in for is the sort of liberty worth having.”
OK, so what is the conclusion? If NO government is better, show me some examples of countries with no government where the people are “more free” than in, say Denmark?
There are many excellent reasons to prefer Denmark to the wilderness, but liberty isn’t one of them. Parents shouldn’t let their children do whatever they want, nor should they shrink wrap parenting as freedom.
I get that you like social security, and I get that you think that freedom is doubleplusgood, but it doesn’t follow that social security -is- freedom.
@Anonymous
“Parents shouldn’t let their children do whatever they want, nor should they shrink wrap parenting as freedom.”
I cannot parse this sentence. It seems to imply that “liberty” equates to preventing your children from doing what they want. Which seem to be opposites. Also, I have no idea how I can combine “shrink wrap parenting” and “Freedom” in this sentence?
Parse ‘shrink wrap’ as ‘sell’, ‘spin’ or ‘dress up’. The sentence says the following:
– parenting is good (generally speaking)
– being parented isn’t freedom (this is implied)
– pretending that parenting is to give freedom is bad (because it isn’t)
The wider implication is that ‘freedom’ and ‘good’ are distinct concepts – neither orthogonal nor parallel.
@Anonymous
“The wider implication is that ‘freedom’ and ‘good’ are distinct concepts – neither orthogonal nor parallel.”
All I asked was examples of countries WITHOUT a government where the people were MORE free than in a country like Denmark. I did not use the word “good”.
You cannot have a country without a government. A country is defined as -a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory-. Your rhetoric is embarrassing.
rogue_philologistRoger, I just read through that whole SJW-filled bit of feminist toxicity again and didn’t see a single reference to me. Then again, Lionel Lauer’s so unhappy that I dare to disagree with his hard-left views that he’s blocked me; if me made a comment about me, i can’t see it.(And who’s running the pool on how long it takes Eric to drop the banhammer this time?)
@Jay
You’re firing well on target:
@Anonymous
“You cannot have a country without a government. ”
I do not even want to argue this falacy. But it is a very sorry excuse for your inabillity to come up with examples of communities without a government that are more free than, say, the Scandinavian countries.
I give you a hint: Eric has written about one that is supposed to qualify. Although I doubt whether modern day women, e.g., Jessica, would have felt particularly free there. Or non-natives for that matter.
@Winter Here’s an example: Stalinist Russia. Stalin was more free than anyone living in Denmark today.
lol sorry I misread that completely.
>I just read through that whole SJW-filled bit of feminist toxicity again and didn’t see a single reference to me.
Including the comments?
“God Emperor Lionel Lauer
+Miros?aw Baran Naturally, Jay hasn’t asked for the details of the mystery IRC man who pulled that insane conspiracy theory out of his arse.?”
Acksiom, as I mentioned, Lionel has me blocked, so I cannot see his comments.
I am intrigued by the lady standing next to Eric in this photograph:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/06/linus_torvalds_targeted_by_honeytraps_says_eric_raymond
Somehow, I doubt whether she shares the ideas of Elaine Ashton or Simon Sharwood.
Nice how the comments below the Register piece supply all the evidence Eric needs to debunk it.
>I am intrigued by the lady standing next to Eric in this photograph:
I’m actually not sure who that is – not any of my close friends. I am, however, certain that this was not taken at a technical conference. I didn’t go to any technical conferences that year, and her costume makes me pretty sure the party was at Penguicon 2008. Quite likely the Friends of A&D party.
> But it is a very sorry excuse for your inabillity to come up with examples of communities without a government that are more free than, say, the Scandinavian countries.
For communities, it’s easy to point in the direction of the native Indian tribes living in the Amazonas. But then we’ll have to try to weigh the mandatory military service in Denmark against the chance than your chief punches you in the face if you start acting gay. And that’s impossible to do in any satisfying way. Some people will think the economical angle is the most important one, others will focus on social security, the usual suspects will whine about the poor state of gender equality in the rainforest.
Feel free to list the ten most populous countries in the world, from least to most ‘free’. Of course, anybody can do it, but barely anybody will agree on the ordering.
Note that this is the exact same point that I made in my first post on this topic, and none of it hinges on exactly how free Denmark is for which definitions of ‘free’.
@Anonymous
“Feel free to list the ten most populous countries in the world, from least to most ‘free’. Of course, anybody can do it, but barely anybody will agree on the ordering.”
You are the one stating a government makes you less free. So, I assumed you had some kind of metric to support this claim.
Obviously, you do not, so this whole “Liberty” thing is a fairy tale.
Btw, if I were you, I would check whether these native tribes do not have a compulsory community service before you make that comparison against Denmark. The idea of “Death and Taxes are certain” has come up with people who did know about native tribes in the Americas. Community service is a tax that predates states.
@Anonymous
“Feel free to list the ten most populous countries in the world, from least to most ‘free’. Of course, anybody can do it, but barely anybody will agree on the ordering.”
That is not true. First of all, I do not see any point in limiting myself to the most populous countries. There are many reasons why that is a biased sample. It would disqualify the EU, with 400M people just because it is organized as independent countries.
Second, for every component of freedom, there are definite metrics and when these are used based on real evidence, you get rankings that reasonable persons can agree on. I know, because that has been done for years.
The funny thing is that these rankings correlate very well. And the Scandinavians come out on top most of the time.
This one is about freedom of expression:
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/freedom-press-2015
This one is on economic freedom:
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
This one is on corruption (which marks power abuse):
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014
@esr
“I’m actually not sure who that is – not any of my close friends.”
So, now we can speculate about why they choose this picture of you to add to the Register piece (pictures are not chosen at random).
My personal suspicion is that the message given by this picture clashes with the message of the written part for many readers.
@Winter
> Empirically, the most free countries in the world are currently representative democracies.
I have seen many of these studies. Plainly which countries are “most free” depends almost entirely on the measure you use, and generally speaking these studies (the ones I have looked at) have measures very different than the ones I would use. For example, most Scandinavian countries have deeply oppressive tax rates. To me that is simply a measure of slavery — taking the fruits of someone else’s labor against their will. Slavery is too strong a word, but I’m not sure what word there is for slavery-lite.
So for you to say “empirically the most free countries are…” is really to assume your conclusion by using your own measures of “freedom”.
However, when you write something like “government is best which governs least” there is a lot of room for interpretation as to what that exactly means. So for example, some have extrapolated this (including I think the implication of what you are saying) to imagine that that means “the government is best which governs not at all”, however, I would not advocate that conclusion at all for some of the reasons you already gave.
The most obvious example of a liberty oriented society is the early United States (ignoring that embarrassing blight of African slavery) but there are other places too, such as Britain before the second world war, and Holland too (though I am by no means an expert on Dutch government and civilization.) None of these places were perfect. but they were all relatively free by some useful measures.
By no means an I am anarchist, I think a small amount of government weighed down heavily by things like bills of rights, constitutional processes, and conflicting interests, is a necessary thing to make liberty work. The extent to which these processes become more and more democratic is the extent to which the state becomes more oppressive, and that is what has been the slow grinding process where liberty has been lost in the non slave holding parts of the USA, starting from Lincoln, through Wilson, and on through our worst president, FDR.
To give two examples of what I am thinking of: in the USA constitutional amendments require a complex process to be passed that is positively anti majoritarian. This is a good thing that has enabled the USA to preserve freedom of speech and the press much more than it would have done otherwise (notwithstanding judicial outrages like “crying fire in a crowded theater”.) Were freedom of speech simple a matter for the legislature, as it is in Britain for example, America would have some of the horrible speech codes that the Brits have.
Similarly in Europe, the fact that changes to the European treaties require unanimous consent from all countries has almost certainly saved that union from spiraling into either self destruction or a tyrannical super state. Not that I am a fan of the EU, but certainly the unanimous nature of the treaty change mechanism has made it a lot better than it would be been otherwise.
@Jessica
“Slavery is too strong a word, but I’m not sure what word there is for slavery-lite.”
I think you mean Servitude or maybe Indenture?
All societies I know of have had taxes and duties. The “Death and Taxes” proverb is true. The Scandinavian version is generally considered excessive, but the people there seem to prefer it over the system used in, e.g., the USA. So, I think you would go for low tax rates.
However, (very) low taxes seem to correlate with minimal protection under the law, selective law enforcement, corruption, and questionable freedom of speech. So this might be one of those, either-or dilemmas.
@Jessica Boxer: *enthusiastic applause*
@Winter
> All societies I know of have had taxes and duties [etc. relating to relationship of taxing power and enforcement of the law]
This is one of the reasons I am in favor of a national retail sales tax as the only form of taxation the government uses (excepting reasonable government fees, such as charges for import and export related to government costs managing these things.)
From my perspective a retail sales tax is essentially a fee to use the economic system the government runs, including the management of the currency, the enforcement of contracts and so forth. I would advocate this without offering any exclusivity, so if you want to trade outside the economy and its legal protections you should go right ahead and do so, with caveat emptor.
Second point, most tax revenue is spent on social programs. Perhaps the two biggest ones here are school taxes at the state level, and government managed retirement and medical insurance. I strongly oppose government doing both. Let me be clear, I much less strongly oppose government making a law that requires people to save for retirement (thou shalt deposit 10% of your paycheck into a retirement account). Though I don’t love this, it is much less terrible than running the money though the government theft machine.
Regarding schools I have commented on here before many times.
@Winter
What about the freedom to form corporations, make (and more importantly: spend) huge amounts of money?
@Roger/Rogue
“What about the freedom to form corporations, make (and more importantly: spend) huge amounts of money?”
That is dealt with in the economic freedom ranking:
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
The “freedom to spend huge amounts of money” part will be of minor concern to most of the people.
I second the applause of Jessica’s analysis; it’s both concise and compelling.
And I would add that almost all governments eventually morph into an entity that places it’s own existence and survival above all other considerations. When that imperative becomes dominant, citizen freedoms erode persistently and inexorably. Unrestrained growth of government is like feeding a cancer.
Here is the US, accelerated growth of our federal government is being funded by extreme borrowing, which is fueling our current economy and false sense of well-being. There is a collective myth that this borrowing will be paid back at some future date. What happens when the lenders figure out that they will never see this investment returned to them?
@TomA
“When that imperative becomes dominant, citizen freedoms erode persistently and inexorably. Unrestrained growth of government is like feeding a cancer.”
Does this theory have any empirical evidence relevant for developed countries?
@Winter: See the entire history of the United States in the 20th and 21st centuries.
@TriggerFinger
But the USA does not have a big government. It is much smaller than in the average EU country.
@esr –
> >I am intrigued by the lady standing next to Eric in this photograph:
> I’m actually not sure who that is – not any of my close friends.
If you look at Douglas Muth’s photostream, you will see that the picture was taken (along with about a half-dozen others from that same event?) in late July (hence, not Penguicon), and in 2006, not 2008. Perhaps looking at the rest of them will jog your memory as to which event this was.
It’s part of the Confluence 2006 album. That should be a good hint.
@esr –
(quoting myself)
> If you look at Douglas Muth’s photostream …
Looking at Douglas’ personal page for conventions he’s attended, you will see that his link for Confluence 2006 takes you to a Flickr photoset with the photo in question.
HTH
Coming late to this discussion, but here is a case which happened recently and, if the information in this article is correct, seems more and more like another deliberate trap of at least some sort:
http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/laura-perrins-chippy-proudman-moans-about-sexism-in-the-workplace-but-there-was-no-sexism-or-indeed-workplace/
Short summary: female lawyer sends a LinkedIn message to male lawyer, where it turns out that they had no prior connection, have never met in real life, do not work together and practice in widely different areas of law – so there would seem to be no apparent reason why she would wish to make a connection. He sends a message back complimenting her on her photo (among other things), she erupts in outrage and the inevitable virtual storm follows.
Now being qualified as a “victim as expert”, she claims that sex is offered for pupillage (a junior lawyer’s mentored position, an essential part of career progression). Without any evidence on her part and, if the information in this article is correct, which would be practically impossible to arrange.
So, if she had no professional reason to contact him, why would she have done so? Deliberately looking for offence, and fully intending to use it to maximum effect in order to give herself authority on a most likely non-existent problem?
@ Winter – “That holds for all patriarchies. At the root of the Islam, Mohammed improved the position of women significantly.”
In light of the very recent events playing out in Paris, I think I will respond to this comment rather than let it pass as I was originally inclined to do.
Islamic patriarchy is not equivalent to the form of patriarchy practiced by Western US pioneers in the 19th Century. Islamic fundamentalists select for timidity and obedience in their women, not toughness and resilience. The former is a suppression of women’s evolutionary nature to be strong guardians of the nest, and the latter is a synergy that maximizes family robustness.
Me thinks your days of pandering to token diversity and ignoring existential threat are about over.
Winter:
The real problem here is that you’re not reading what I am writing. You are pattern-matching to someone you have had a similar conversation with before, and as far as I can tell this someone must have been an anarchist. I’m not an anarchist, I just don’t have any patience with bullshit rhetoric.
Literally my first post on the topic points out how people will evaluate governments differently, in terms of freedom, depending on their ideological views. This implicitly denies the existence of a (well-defined) metric. Yet you seem to think this is an argument against my position – which says very little about my position and very much about your reading comprehension.
As a back-of-an-envelope demonstration of this point, a government can ban infant circumcision. This limits the parents freedom to make decisions for their children and to practice their religion, but trades this off against the children’s freedom to decide for themselves at a later time whether their foreskin is worth keeping.
The only way to get around this problem is to argue over what freedom -is- rather than what maximizes freedom, which is ultimately the exact same discussion wrapped as a semantics problem rather than an optimization problem.
Note that all of the above is nothing but a restatement of my very first post – the same content, with training wheels, if you prefer.
P.S. Can we have a preview button, Eric?
@Anonymous
“The only way to get around this problem is to argue over what freedom -is- rather than what maximizes freedom, which is ultimately the exact same discussion wrapped as a semantics problem rather than an optimization problem.”
Freedom is in the eye of the beholder.
What “Freedom” is is probably part of ethics and esthetics. But as perfect “Freedom” can only be attained in perfect isolation, all real freedom is restricted. So it comes down to which restrictions a person considers acceptable and which not. This is inherently a culturally conditioned personal choice.
Just like beauty.
@Winter
Freedom is just another word for options, you plonker! And ultimately one person’s freedom comes at the expense of another. You have the freedom to fart around in a science lab somewhere because someone else is forced to scrub fucking toilets all day. And don’t give me this “not forced to do it” shit, either. The point is, you can be anything the toilet cleaner can be. He can’t be you.
@Roger/rogue
Your Eliza insult bot is great. I am curious for the language model.
>Freedom is in the eye of the beholder.
No, this is just sophistry. The term actually means something. Freedom isn’t slavery. Liberty isn’t government.
>What “Freedom” is is probably part of ethics and esthetics. But as perfect “Freedom” can only be attained in perfect isolation, all real freedom is restricted. So it comes down to which restrictions a person considers acceptable and which not. This is inherently a culturally conditioned personal choice. >Just like beauty.
r_p said the only sensible thing there is to be said about freedom, but you ignore it and start rambling. What anybody considers acceptable is perfectly irrelevant. Those who rule define what the rest is obligated to tolerate. See Waco for reference. Freedom is options, or perhaps more precisely the ability to realize one’s wants. A man alone on a small desert island, in perfect isolation, isn’t free in any meaningful sense. He desires to get off the island but is powerless to make it happen, and so he feels unfree.
Like there is a struggle between man and nature – where nature just does its thing, and man tries to mold it to his liking – so there is also a struggle between men, where their different preferences come into conflict. And given that there are common, scarce resources, there is no way for two men both to be perfectly free. Freedom is power – the power to get what you want, and simultaneously declare that this is fairest of all outcomes.
Governments don’t produce freedom. They monopolize and redistribute power. Typically the weak and inept, gain from this, much like how a cripple has more power over his fate by appealing to the benevolence of a master, than he could ever have had on his own. Governments are how the politically competent wield power. Democracy is the currently fashionable excuse for their Lordship, by which they pretend to their subjects that they have no master – they are free as long as they live by the law their masters dictate for them.
The industrious without taste for violence and status games lose power in this grand redistribution, by having most of the fruits of his labor expropriated through various forms of taxation, all the while being told that this confiscation is for his own good. In return, he is allowed to grovel for ‘free’ services such as education and schooling, that he could surely never have acquired had not all his bargaining chips been forcibly taken away from him.
That is not to say that governments are bad. They are generally somewhat functional. But to understand the relationship between freedom and government, one must first understand what governments really do, which is not the same as how they make themselves presentable.
Random832 on 2015-11-10 at 13:10:22 said:
Whoa, hey, there’s a stereotype that has emerged in the last decade or so, of which wearing a fedora is a part, that has nothing to do with religion (except maybe a particularly smug brand of atheism).
and
And I for one have never heard of any kind of stereotype or association whereby a fedora would have anything to do with being Jewish.
The 2015 World Series of Poker “Final Table” just concluded. One of the “November Nine” was amateur Neil Blumenfield, a 61 years old retired IT entrepreneur from San Francisco, whose natty dress always included a snappy hat. Some of the finalists had fans in attendance. Blumenfield’s fans all wore hats like his – and t-shirts emblazoned “Fear the Fedora!”
(Blumenfield finished third – a splendid performance. And he’s a home brewer!)
Jeff Read on 2015-11-10 at 14:58:36 said:The point of the blog entry, as I see it, is that the number of men in tech who are trying to get women alone to grope, creep on, or rape them probably vastly exceeds the number of women in tech who are setting honeytraps.
Suppose some aggrieved black men decided to avenge their oppression by forming packs to inflict brutal, humiliating, rape on white women. The number of whites who are bigoted against blacks probably vastly exceeds the number of black men who would do that. But which group would be the more acute problem?
Gropers and creepers are individuals with annoying manners – if they knew better, they’d stop. Rapists are individual criminals excoriated by everyone and punishable by law.
The honeytrappers are a self-righteous conspiracy to destroy the reputations and positions of completely innocent people. (If they were after actual creepers, or gropers, or rapists, they wouldn’t be specifically targeting FOSS leaders, or working up ways to make false charges plausible.)
See the difference?
> The honeytrappers are a self-righteous conspiracy to destroy the reputations and positions of completely innocent people
If there were the slightest evidence of such a group, they would be. Unfortunately, there has been no evidence whatsoever: *no one* in the open source world has reported a first-hand or even second-hand experience. Just 3rd party rumors from an unidentified “reputable source” without dates, times, places, names, or any confirmation whatsoever. Worse, it’s unverifiable rumors against members of a weird, but reputable organization that did some good work for women in technology. It looks much more like classic political smear tactics, designed to discredit people whose opinions the rumor-monger does not like.
Thank you for posting this.
Its terrible what feminazis will do.
Ignore honeytrappers and boob fighters. Keep coding. Keep focus.
Greetings from Canada. When I first read this blog post, I was skeptical and just thought that esr is just being paranoid and all this talk about honey trap is an exaggeration. However, now I am forced to reconsider my position. Please read about the trial of one Jiam Gomeshi (a somewhat popular Canadian broadcaster) who has been accused of sexual assault. As the trial unfolds defence submitted evidence of BAITING by one of the female ‘victims’. It is clear to anyone following the trial that the allegations are just a simple case of consensual sex, which is then exploited by the ‘victims’ to pursue some agenda.
(full story: http://globalnews.ca/news/2491968/jian-ghomeshi-trial-day-2-continues-with-cross-examination-of-1st-witness/). But what is more disgusting is how easily the law enforcement can be convinced into taking up and prosecuting a sexual assault case, which happened years earlier.Regardless of the outcome of the trial, this man’s (yes, I said MAN, so the feminazis can go to hell), life is ruined. At least in US we have esr and like minded people to stand up for some sanity, but here in Canada, there is none who values freedom, meritocracy over political correctness. Just an example, when asked why he appointed 50% of his new cabinet to be women, our new PM Justin Trudeau said, “because it is 2015” ; thats right!! apparently the only qualification needed was to be a female. Enough of political correctness, affirmative actions, and mindless feminism . ESR, kindly request you to rant (again) about poliical correctness in a new blog post – you are more eloquent that most.
There is an enormous difference between “individual woman becomes attention seeking stalker”, as the article you cite describes, and “that’s how the Ada Initiative was trying to pre-generate outrage and collect scalps. “, which is what Eric quoted, and his own words “I have to see it as an an attempt to smear and de-legitimize the Linux community” I’ve been an active member of both free software, and open source, for decades. I know several former members of the Ada Initiative, including a former president, and the claim is not merely nonsense, it is libel.
A lot of men have difficulty working with women in technology for many reasons, many of which the Ada Initiative tried to help address. And occasionally, social justice warrior style accusations have interfered with speech and with social lives: been there, done that. But an organized plot to entrap open source leaders? Please. That sounds more like rationalization for refusal to accept women in technology.
>But an organized plot to entrap open source leaders? Please. That sounds more like rationalization for refusal to accept women in technology.
I am unable to apprehend the kind of mental confusion that would lead you to put those sentences next to each other.
> A lot of men have difficulty working with women in technology for many reasons,
That’s laughable. A lot of men would LOVE not to have every tech meeting be a sausage party. Where DO you people get this idea from?
What you want, and what you can do well, are not the same thing at all. I’ve personally had difficulty working with women at various times. When you have technology leaders like Eric Raymond telling men that thee is a nefarious plot against them, it’s also gone from comedy to tragedy and right back to comedy again.
>When you have technology leaders like Eric Raymond telling men that there is a nefarious plot against them, it’s also gone from comedy to tragedy and right back to comedy again.
I don’t think my report was diagnostic of a plot “against men”. I think it was diagnostic of a plot to break the hacker culture and make it malleable to political control by “diversity” activists. That’s much more specific.
The facts of that situation do not accommodate themselves to my desires. Or yours.
There are no “facts” in evidence, only unsubstantiated rumor from an anonymous source. Please, provide a single instance of any individual who is, or has shown any sign of being, an instigator or a victim of a plot against open source leaders.
>There are no “facts” in evidence, only unsubstantiated rumor from an anonymous source.
Oh, fuck off. I know my informant and trust him. You don’t. You’ve made it clear you are unconvinced, and I am unwilling that he be rage-mobbed in order to make you happy. So we’re done here.
@esr even if you disagree with it, “[[the professed belief that there is] an organized plot to entrap open source leaders] sounds like rationalization for refusal to accept women in technology” is a perfectly coherent statement.
In case you’re being sincere about not understanding what he’s talking about, I’ll walk you through it. (If, on the other hand, it’s a rhetorical trick… you’re better than that.)
Nico believes that A) there is not such an organized plot and B) there is so little basis for believing that one exists that anyone claiming such clearly must have some motive other than sincere belief for making such a claim.
He puts forward “rationalization for refusal to accept women in technology” (which refusal he apparently believes is actually due to malicious sexism, with the rationalization being a false justification) as a possible candidate for that other motive.
Even if you don’t agree with the premises A and B, surely you can accept that other people, not having seen the same evidence you did (not, that is, assigning as much weight to an anonymous accusation relayed through you, as you do to the accusation made by someone you personally know and trust) can reasonably and sincerely hold them.
@Nico
> There is an enormous difference between “individual woman becomes attention seeking stalker”, as the article you cite describes
Sorry for the late response. But todays proceedings of the Jian Gomeshi trial reveal that not only one but ALL three of the purported ‘victims’ so far, have been found out to be lying. Not only lying, but they have co-ordinated and communicated the allegations beforehand between themselves via 5000 messages between them (pls google, for more details, it is the trending news in Canada). So the ‘lone attention seeking stalker’ theory doesnt hold up. It is a well *co-ordinated*, *coherent* attack on a known public figure, with the *intention* of bringing him down.
The point being, in the current climate, it is ever easier to bring about a sex assault case and in most cases the burden of proof (sadly) is on the accused, rather than the accuser. Most hackers like esr dont have enough financial clout(like Gomeshi) to fight it out in court; even if they could, what they care about most is their reputation, which will be irrevocably lost. So I see no evil in esr sounding out a warning to his fellows.
Moreover, for all those saying esr’s anonymous source is purely fictional- so what if he pulled it out of his ass? because whatever he has said (whether the source is fictional or not) is happening right? So even more kudos to him if his source is purely fictional, because that suggests he is the new Nostradamus
>So even more kudos to him if his source is purely fictional, because that suggests he is the new Nostradamus.
I am not a prophet. The IRC exchange was real and reported almost verbatim, except that I made some minor non-content changes to obscure my source’s IRC style.
Since the Ghomeshi case did not involve software leaders, did not involve entrapment, and had nothing to do with the Ada Initiative. It’s like giving credit for the book of Revelations predicting the election of Donald Trump: they’re quite distinct prophecies and events.
TL;DR – It’s in more places than you realize. Hide.
—-
Bear these ideas in mind, and then go and examine *anything*. Look into the history of any field, any group, anywhere.
I recently had the question “Why did person x exit community y?”. I looked at old blog postings and articles, and found the rape accusation. Person x left because there were some unusual shifts in personality and personnel. Shortly thereafter, the newcomer young woman who had been buddying up with the most senior and trustworthy man she could find, cried assault, and he was knocked down and replaced with someone sufficiently pliable. The entire community shifted.
I looked at another person I had long known, to catch up on where they’re at. I had some small pride in being there with them in their early days, even influencing them, but learned they’ve become prominent but in a community infected with “those people”. I looked into his personal life, and saw he had one of “them” as his girlfriend/handler.
Look well beyond tech, well beyond science, and you will still find it..
Notice the number of comments, even here, and keep in mind that “their” efforts are boundless in comparison. Not just the false-outrage or fake articles, but falsified studies by those with falsified-credentials published by journals created specifically for it, done specifically for citation by the dishonest to convert useful idiots. Intentional and coordinated.
Go. Take anyone anywhere in anything, who feels like they’ve brushed up against the Evil, and look into who they’ve known and what they’ve done. Pick yourself a Wikipedia moderator, a reporter, or an entire company that supports them or simply turns a blind eye. Pick a magazine, a newspaper, a journal, a website.. reddit, youtube, tumblr, twitter, 4chan, 8ch. Pick a union, a fraternity, a political organization, any club of some size.
See it as a bias, a dangerous perspective that you purposely tint your vision with. Embrace it then go looking for this specific infiltration. Find individuals acting a certain way, then pull back a little and find the influences and coordination. Then try to stand up to your bias and see things any other way.
People talk about some tech conference. Go look at another conference for the same things. People talk about hiring practices at company x. Learn what prompted them, then go look at company y. False study x reported by distributor y, then go look for study x reported by distributor z. What else relates y and z? What else have the creators of x released?
Give it an extra two degrees of separation from what people bring up. It’s a lot of work, I know. Just keep things in mind and the dots will get connected in time.
Though I could only skim, several spoke one degree out, and one commenter brushed against a third degree of separation. The rabbit hole goes deep.
I did my poking around, then withdrew. I see no security in a crowd on this one. I’d need my own useful idiots.. and I’m not dishonest enough to puppeteer. I’d be the tall blade of grass, and any others, idiots or powerful guardians, would just be more grass standing alongside me.
.. first they came…
but I was not a(n)
academic..
journalist..
politician..
tech millionaire..
..
As long as we allow sexual suppression and repression to continue in societies around the world, it will be used against us. We all have to start researching and understanding the purpose of sexual suppression, and how it serves to weaken and enslave us. Details here: https://blog.kareldonk.com/everything-in-life-is-about-sex/
I had already mentioned how the NSA was abusing their capabilities (according to Snowden) to collect material on people that could be used against them in sex scandals to damage their reputation. A similar tactic was also used against Julian Assange of WikiLeaks, trying to blame him for sexual abuse, in order to get back at him for releasing certain information to the public. Similarly, Jacob Appelbaum, one of the leads of the Tor project, was recently also accused of sexual harassment.
And as mentioned in the above quote, even Linus Torvalds had probably been targeted in the past. Why would they do this? The following quote by Robert Anton Wilson which I had already mentioned in a previous note, makes this clear:
“Now, a guilt-ridden man is an easy man to manipulate and force to your own will, because self-respect is the prerequisite of independence and rebellion, and the guilt-ridden person can have no self-respect.”
I was reminded of this post by the recent nonsense over VP Mike Pence’s apparent policy of—‹gasp›—not taking women to one-on-one dinners and not attending parties without his wife. The mental gymnastics on display attempting to portray this as something bad are astounding: “If he can’t control himself from raping a woman he’s alone with, he should resign!”, and milder variations; “This will interfere with women’s opportunities for advancement!” as suggested here up-thread, and as disproven by discussions with women who have actually worked with Mr. Pence.
There’s a part of me that’s suspicious of the reason for this faux outrage—were they hoping for a scandal, whether real, contrived (honey-trap), or completely fictitious, and are now bitterly disappointed to discover their target has taken preëmptive measures to protect himself? Nah, it’s probably just Trump Acceptance Resistance Disorder, plus hostility to religious conservatives, plus standard SJW hypocrisy.
Probably.
Seriously, someone linked me this when it first came out. It made me sick to my stomach then, and it makes me sick to my stomach now.
This is a great example of rape culture.
This is a great example of toxic masculinity and the problem with the FLOSS community.
Shame on you ESR and your pack of women hating men.
No, it seems to be an example of “Friend of a friend” anonymous rumor mongering. I know several members of the Ada Initiative, and to claim that they were honey trapping with their bodies is an insult to real women doing real work for and about encouraging women in tech. It smeared friends of mine with what sounds like a juvenile fantasy from this anonymous accuser, one who *wishes* he was important enough to have women scheming to trap him with their bodies, which he would resist only after they served his every whim, because he is more manly than they could possibly handle. Then they’d fund his kickstarter to make a really *good* on-line game, and cut his toenails and wash his body of Cheetoh’s crumbs in his mom’s basement so that he never has to take off his wireless headphones, and he can pursue his lifelong dream of finally headshotting that noob camper on the de_dust2 map of Counter-Strike.
Yes, we can all make up entertaining conspiracy theories.But if we’re going to invent them, let’s at least make them colorful and take credit for them.
>No, it seems to be an example of “Friend of a friend” anonymous rumor mongering.
It is not. I know the source well and find his accusations credible. Unfortunately, disclosing my reasons for finding him credible would risk outing him, and I am certain his being outed would result in an attempt to destroy his career.
Wow, that’s a impressive set of content-free handfuls of flung emotional ammunition.
>Wow, that’s a impressive set of content-free handfuls of flung emotional ammunition.
Yup. These people are working on making “rape culture” and “misogyny” into meaningless noises even faster than they traduced “racism”. Duckspeak is the mind-killer…
> Wow, that’s a impressive set of content-free handfuls of flung emotional ammunition.
Well, yes. That was the point: if you’re going to report nonsensical, unfounded allegations, at least try to make them entertaining.
@supprised[sic]:
Are you contending that the incident in the OP did not actually occur? Nor any of the other incidents cited in comments?
Or are you contending that the incident in the OP could not possibly occur? We obviously believe it could, based on just incentive analysis alone, and many of us also believe it did, although we couldn’t prove it in a US court of law. If it makes you sick, well, that’s one reason why we condemn such incidents – they hurt innocent women.
But even if given only that we believe it could happen, how do you expect to be able to shame a group of people for attempting to protect themselves and others?
>>No, it seems to be an example of “Friend of a friend” anonymous rumor mongering.
> It is not. I know the source well and find his accusations credible.
Since none of us know your friend, no one anywhere has reported an actual incidence of this entrapment behavior, and his accusations are not credible based on my first hand knowledge of several founders of the Ada Initiative, it seems to be the very definition of “friend of a friend” rumor mongering.
Being cautious with female colleagues to avoid even the appearance of harassment? Sure, that’s basic caution. But believing in an organized conspiracy to sexually entrap leaders in free or open software, from an undisclosed source without a single shred of evidence or a single reported case? That’s just believing the word of basement boy who *wishes* women would entrap him, so he could resist them mightily and win them to his side for companionship in his quest to recover the Amulet of Yandor.
> Unfortunately, disclosing my reasons for finding him credible would risk outing him, and I am certain his being outed would result in an attempt to destroy his career.
How convenient. If only you had found it so convenient to refuse to name what organization he was accusing, so that we could be discussing the possibility in a hypothetical vacuum rather than in the context of an attempt (justified or otherwise) to smear a specific group of people. Redacting their name wouldn’t, after all, have reduced the value of the warning for the “common sense” measures you’ve proposed (or do you mean to propose only avoiding being alone with women known to affiliated with this specific group, and not with those whose affiliation is unknown?) So what’s the purpose of naming them?
>Redacting their name wouldn’t, after all, have reduced the value of the warning for the “common sense” measures you’ve proposed
I think it would have. I could not in good conscience have suppressed anything that would help potential targets have a more accurate threat model (subject to the constraint that my source must not be outed).
I think I’ve put my finger on what bothered me about this. “They have made multiple runs at him.” That’s certainly at the very least an embellishment. How could he possibly know this? How could whoever told him know, unless they were an insider (from the perpetrators’ side, not Linus)?
>“They have made multiple runs at him.”
Knowing what I know about my source, it’s not hard for me to imagine a fact pattern that would justify that inference. I will ask him, but I think it is fairly likely that I will be unable to publish his answer without putting him in jeopardy.
The only way that anyone could possibly know about such an attempt is for there to have actually been one that was “successful” (at least in so far as successfully getting alone with someone and going on record accusing them of sexual assault, and maybe then failing to make the accusation stick). Did he name an example of a specific not-Linus person who had endured such an accusation, which he asserted to be a case of this happening?
There are only two ways to be able to make assertions about what someone’s “M.O.” is – to have observed it, or to have imagined it. If he observed it there should be, if not evidence that the accusation was false, at least evidence that there was an accusation.
@ESR >Knowing what I know about my source
Paraphrased: “The lurkers support me in email!”
LOL. And no doubt your girlfriend in Canada also backs your claims 100%.
Welcome aboard @Random832 & @Nico Kadel-Garcia. It’s nice to know that there are more of us in the tech community who are actual adults, & don’t subscribe to paranoid sexual conspiracy theories.
More seriously – & I’m frankly embarrassed to give this deranged claim the credibility of even responding to it – how on earth do you, ESR, explain why Linus Torvalds – probably the most influential living tech guru on the planet at this time, & who has never shown the slightest fear of pissing people off – has never addressed this alleged conspiracy against him?
Um…I hope that ESR’s prediction here about Linus hasn’t just come true: http://archive.is/6AyZy
I’ve seen no evidence for even a word of Eric’s claim, and I’m quite confused that you’d think Linus’s current apology for years of being rude to people has anything to do with an insidious plot by ultra feminists to entrap free software leaders, mooh-ha-ha, we hates them, yes, my precious. The claim was beyond silly, it was libelous in the first place.
How have you arrived at the idea that even a single word of it might be valid?
Anonymous, I don’t think so.
My notion of what happened is that Linus realized he was being unjustifiably nasty to people, and it was (I think) causing damage in the Linux community.
His insults seem to have been, from the small sample I saw, rather generic attacks on people’s intelligence and/or competence.
Unfortunately, the handiest model for cleaning up how you treat people was SJW and he went to that instead of addressing what he’d actually been doing.
What he appeared to do was follow the suggestion of one of the top kernel maintainers, Greg Kroah-Hartman, a person Linus trusts (in kernel matters) almost like no one else. Greg KH proposed the Creator Covenant a couple years ago, I think, and Linus held off on it because he wanted leeway to manage by perkele. With that gone he had no justification for not adopting the code.
Honestly, even if this decision turns out to be all wrong, can you blame him for going along with one of his most trusted and reputable lieutenants?
>Honestly, even if this decision turns out to be all wrong, can you blame him for going along with one of his most trusted and reputable lieutenants?
Easily, yes. Linus isn’t stupid and he isn’t indoctrinated. Reforming his own behavior, fine, but letting a “trusted lieutenant” talk him around to that toxic-pile-of-crap CoC – if that’a what happened – was a horrific lapse in judgment.
After the systemd fiasco, I have no clue why Linux trusts Greg Koah-Hartman, since GKH was (and remains) neck deep in that stinking pit of biological waste matter.
“Unfortunately, the handiest model for cleaning up how you treat people was SJW”
That’s not a coincidence. Anti-bullying is the core principle of the Social Justice ethos, so of course it has the best available models for dealing with it.
“and he went to that instead of addressing what he’d actually been doing.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing. It’s not. And it *is* addressing what he’d actually been doing.
> That’s not a coincidence. [Convincing the other tribe to stop fighting so the SJW tribe can go in unopposed and bully everyone into submission] is the core principle of the Social Justice ethos, so of course it has the best available models for dealing with it.
There. FTFY.
Sure. Because Linus is so famous for bowing to bullies. /s
Nancy Lebovitz, I disagree. Why would he choose a Code of Conduct written by a ideololgical warrior who believes in post meritocracy? If that is not the canary in the coalmine, I don’t know what is. RIP Linux. RIP Open Source. The future will be Closed source to all but a few guild members. Mark my words.
Black-piller. The SJWs are strong, but they are not invincible. Together, we can defeat them. We just have to convince Linus of the error of his ways–or, failing that, start our own kernel project.
“Forking Linux to pwn the Libs!1!!1!11!”
Good luck with that, kiddo.
You don’t get it. It’s about maintaining code quality. (((You))) are the ones inserting politics into Linux.
(((Because /of course/ you’re a Nazi.)))
Because, of course, you are just an useful idiot.
“an insidious plot by ultra feminists to entrap free software leaders, mooh-ha-ha, we hates them, yes, my precious. The claim was beyond silly, it was libelous in the first place.
How have you arrived at the idea that even a single word of it might be valid?”
Because we have the actual words of feminists to go by.
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/11/21/teen-vogue-columnist-not-at-all-concerned-about-innocent-men-and-false-harassment-allegations/
One fool saying that she’s not worried about false accusations because they’re so very rare and ignoring the possibility of falsehood encourages the vast numbers of abused women to speak out, *which is what she actually said*, is not the same as making a nefarious plot to entrap men. She also had nothing to do with the Ada Initiative, which is the group ESR accused, based on the word of this “friend he can trust”.
If you look far and wide for a radical feminist to call for abuse of men via fraud, I’m sure you can do better. It’s not the same as an organized plot, especially a plot by the Ada Initiative, of which knew some of the leadership. The word of an occasional loon should not be considered “the actual words of feminists”, any more than ESR’s unidentified friend should be considered a proof that free software leaders are being harassed. There’s no link between one loon and any testable facts.
“One fool saying that she’s not worried about false accusations because they’re so very rare and ignoring the possibility of falsehood encourages the vast numbers of abused women to speak out,”
Excepot false accusations are NOT rare.
According to the FBI, for almost every type of crime, the false accusation rate is around 3%
But for rape, that’s not so.
According to a FEMALE with the New York Special Victims Unit, “OVER 50% of rape accusations are PROVABLY FALSE.” (Um, ma’am, how could Joe Blow have raped you during the first week of February while we had him locked up in Rikers awaiting trial?”).
A professor at Purdue did some research and found that OVER 50% of rape accusations are later retracted.
And of course, we ALL know that, many women, if things aren’t going their way, will attempt to coerce a man into either (a) doing something wrong on her behalf or (b) not do the right thing, which would cause her to have a set back… by….threatening, “I’ll scream rape!”
Woman has sex with someone other than boyfriend / husband…. makes a rape accusation
Woman has sex and comes home late …. makes a rape accusation
Woman wants to date some guy, but doesn’t want to be known for being the campus floozy that she really is, as revealed by a party the previous weekend … makes a rape accusation
Woman has regrets about whatever depraved thing she did … makes a rape accusation.
Not one of the above incidents is made up .. ALL of them are from news items over the past few years.
And then there was a big case at U of Michigan many years ago. A male student was accused of raping some sorority girl. The trial was in the news every day, as it dragged on for over a week. Finally, one of the other women from the sorority came forward — and she testified as follows:
“Before leaving the house for the party, [the accuser] yelled, “I’m going to fuck a Fiji if it’s the last thing I do tonight!””
The prosecution promptly conceded the case, as they realized that there was no way any jury would convict him.
It is Frustrating, however, that the girl who made this false accusation was never even given a citation, let alone charged with misdemeanor or felony perjury as she should have been.
Been thinking, I have.
The problem is using the linux kernel dev list for patches. It lets people see whose patches are accepted / not accepted, and who submitted which patch. And it provides a platform for the unhinged to rant on.
Instead, create tool for patch submission, such that only the maintainers concerned by that patch can decrypt or see it. Maintainers can’t identify the submitter (name or email). Potentially one could add a unique hash that provides stats as to whether a submitters’ previous patches were accepted, and how much back and forth they needed.
Now, disgruntled special minorities whose patches must be accepted because of “inclusion” cannot claim discrimination: the maintainers can’t know who wrote what. Also there is no platform to rant on either.
It might even improve code quality. I wonder if Linus is prototyping something like this.
Provenance is useful for evaluating a patch, as is personal history for understanding if a patch is worth looking at. Part of the point of free software is to see the code, and seeing the history of the code is incredibly useful. Secretive code submissions is creating an oligarchy of approved reviewers. It leads to hidden agendas and undocumented API’s. It’s much harder to claim discrimination if the evaluation process is public.
It’s also completely off the topic of ESR’s “undisclosed but trustworthy source” fantasizing for his personal gratification that the Ada Initiative wants to send cunning feminist spies to entrap him as an open source leader. It’s the only reason for this accusation that I’ve ever come up with that makes sense.
>It’s the only reason for this accusation that I’ve ever come up with that makes sense.
I know the guy. You’re completely wrong. He made that accusation because he believed it. He also provided credible details which I cannot disclose without outing him and risking his career being destroyed by a rage mob. Nobody is going to get Eiched because I couldn’t keep a confidence, even if it means people like you dismiss the story.
Eric, you have some credibility, which is why I’m not assuming you completely fabricated this. But your personal line of reasoning about Linus’s silence confirming the claim is nonsensical. Linus doesn’t talk about how he eats peas in a row to prevent the aliens from eating his spleen, either. People only have so much time in their day to publicly refute falsehoods.
Thee mere fact that your acquaintance believed it is not a compelling reason to give it credence. It’s an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence, of which there seems not to be even a single iota. As it stands, it’s a reason to think your friend is a loon. And yes, it’s a brand of lunacy I’ve seen before where men fantasize about women entrapping them when women simply are not interested in them, and their lack of women is because they’ve outsmarted the cunning plot, moo-ha-ha-ha!
>As it stands, it’s a reason to think your friend is a loon.
He is not. You would know that if I named him and told you what his day job is, but I won’t do that.
Eric, “you would believe me if you knew the secret part” is not extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim. It’s what Joe McCarthy did when he said “I have in his hand a list of 205 communists who have infiltrated the U.S. State Department.” He wouldn’t name a single name on the list, and it marked the beginning of the McCarthy Era in American polotics.
There is no reason to believe your friend. You have earned some credibility, but some anonymous source who is, to us, a “friend of a friend”, is not someone any of us should take seriously.
>Eric, “you would believe me if you knew the secret part” is not extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim.
I can’t make you believe anything. I can only speak about what I believe to be true.
Notice the irony here. The reason I don’t dare reveal more of what I know is that your allies have successfully created a climate of terror. Careers wrecked, rage mobs unleashed, doxing, death threats. Maybe you should consider who is acting like totalitarian thugs when evaluating the credibility and ‘extraordinariness’ of my friend’s report.
>“I have in his hand a list of 205 communists who have infiltrated the U.S. State Department.”
You might want to choose a better example. Now that we have the Venona transcripts and subject-matter-expert testimony from people who studied the KGB archives in the pre-Putin era when they were briefly open to historians, it is pretty clear that McCarthy had the scale of Soviet infiltration about right, though some of the individual names might have been wrong.
Oh, dear lord. Did you just claim that your friend’s claims are as valid as Joe McCarthy’s claims? Since Joe McCarthy never produced any documentation, or evidence whatsoever, to support even a single one of his claims?
I’m gong to “Godwin’s Law” myself and state that believing this claim of yours makes as much sense as believing that the Zionist Conspiracy runs the world so we should never trust a Jew. The paranoia leads in short order to destructive mishandling of even innocent confusion or reasonable caution.
Be cautious bout solitary time with mentored staff or students because there is a long history of abuse, not because there is some nefarious plot with no evidence whatsoever.
>Oh, dear lord. Did you just claim that your friend’s claims are as valid as Joe McCarthy’s claims?
No. I didn’t equate the two. Don’t be tendentious.
“Tendentious”? Check the definition. “expressing or intending to promote a particular cause or point of view, especially a controversial one.” The idea that Joe McCarthy lied through his teeth is hardly tendentious. The idea that there is a secret plot by the Ada Initiative to entrap leaders in open source software with sexual lures and false harassment accusations is, or should be, quite tendentious.
Nico Kadel-Garcia.
Your disapproval changes nothing.
Either Eric’s friend is telling the truth, or he isn’t.
The fact is, women have a LONG history of making outrageous charges of sexual misconduct when they aren’t getting THEIR way. There is nothing new under the sun about this.
> Either Eric’s friend is telling the truth, or he isn’t.
So what? Either you are a 137 year old gecko named Florence, sipping a pina colada, or you are not. The evidence is that you aren’t. To claim that there is a cunning plot by the Ada Initiative to entrap open source authors, or that you can regrow your tail if it is detached, should require more evidence.
> The fact is, women have a LONG history of making outrageous charges of sexual misconduct
As far as I can tell, all mammals (and many other species) have rape and sexual abuse. And they all have sexual deceit. There should be nothing surprising about the existence of fraudulent claims af abuse, nor has anyone in this thread said they do not exist.
>To claim that there is a cunning plot by the Ada Initiative to entrap open source authors, or that you can regrow your tail if it is detached, should require more evidence.
But I have more evidence. Your allies have made it a career-destroying move to reveal that evidence. You are pretty much in the position of an apologist for the KGB or Stasi insisting that there can’t be any serious dissent against the State because nobody will express dissent in public.
If you’re tempted to retort that this is an extreme comparison, I suggest you ask Brendan Eich or James Damore about that.
“I have more evidence”? Are we back to the infamous Joe McCarthy speech, recorded at http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6456, where he claimed more than 200 communists had been revealed in the State Department and never provided evidence or testimony other than his own citation? You are making specific accusations against a specific group. Put up the actual data.
Brendan Eich’s case is not actual data for this clam. Unless there was a harassment charge behind the scenes, he was lobbied against, openly, for his political activities against same sex marriage. That’s not entrapment. James Dalmore is a *very* different case. He spoke out internally, at his own workplace, and was illegally fired for it. His firing was a disgrace. I’d agree that he was harassed. But it has *nothing* to do with a secret plot to entrap open source leaders.
If this is the kind of “evidence” you are relying on to believe your friend’s claims, it would explain why you won’t provide it. It’s like believing UNIX is Linux because OpenSolaris is open source. It involves separate people and separate events, without evidence to make the link you’ve just claimed..
You’re also mistaking my dispute of your claims with espousal of modern feminist politics. I disagree with various modern feminist politics, profoundly. But these false accusations discredit genuine disputes with their behavior and beliefs.
>Put up the actual data.
I will not. I will not impose the risk of being Eiched or Damored on my informant.
If that causes you to write off the report, that’s a price I willingly pay for not betraying him to a rage mob.
Note that Eich’s donation information was *legally privileged* and leaked.
“Provenance is useful for evaluating a patch, as is personal history for understanding if a patch is worth looking at.”
Only to a small extent, and I addressed that. Knowing people’s names is not necessary. Indeed, cliques and other “you scratch my back & I’ll scratch yours” human relations are the root of most corruption. Evaluating code purely on merit prevents such corruption.
“Part of the point of free software is to see the code, and seeing the history of the code is incredibly useful. Secretive code submissions is creating an oligarchy of approved reviewers. It leads to hidden agendas and undocumented API’s.”
You misunderstood what I wrote. The code is still visible afterwards, and misbehaviour can still be caught. This only fixes the process of submitting it to make it less hackable. You seem to be harboring the delusion that there are tons of people who spend their lives reading other people’s code. There aren’t, as most coders know.
“It’s much harder to claim discrimination if the evaluation process is public.”
No evidence provided. Unsubstantiated ideological claim detected.
just like the boy who cried wolf, led to his own demise, and the loss of many sheep… there’s a disturbing extrapolation i hope they’ve considered.
They don’t consider anything.
The person who started all of this, is a man who THINKS he’s a woman, and, while working for Google of all places, was, by his own admission, involuntarily institutionalized — because he’s too insane even for the radicals at Google.
He’s also a priest in a Satanic cult.
Destruction is the name of their game, and if it ends up causing even more destruction in the future, they’re totally fine with that, because that’s their goal.
One example of a very common mindset. I could provide enough links to break this blog. And you’re a prime example of the obfuscation they use.